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Old 09-Apr-17, 03:03
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Default Dana White: "I didn't see the women thing coming"

Dana White talked with Colin Cowherd the other day. From FOX Sports:

Quote:
It seems like an eternity since Dana White said women would never fight in the UFC but it was really just under four years ago. Since then, White has completely changed his tune. Not only are their women on the roster, but the promotion has two women’s division, a third on the way, and their fights have been some of the most captivating in recent memory.

White hasn’t regretted his decision one bit.

Colin Cowherd: Was there a moment for you, where you left an event and thought, ‘God, this is real, these are skilled, world-class athletes.’

Dana White: Oh yeah, absolutely. Obviously the men have been at this level for a long time, what’s really blown me away are the women. Like I said, I didn’t see the women thing coming and their so tough, so technical, so talented and it just keeps getting better and better. It’s funny because on this card in Buffalo this weekend, there’s a girl, she’s from Team Alpha Male, her name is Cynthia Calvillo. She fought on the Wonderboy Thompson-Woodley card. I was so blown away, I was so impressed by her that I’m actually bringing her back already, if Buffalo. She’s taking on a girl named Pearl Gonzalez and I’m actually really excited for that fight. You know we got Chris Weidman vs. Gegard Mousasi, we got Cormier vs. Anthony Johnson, Myles Jury is coming back, he’s in the main event on FS1, and I’m more excited about the girl’s fight.
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  #2  
Old 10-Apr-17, 01:19
al89 al89 is offline
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Default Re: Dana White: "I didn't see the women thing coming"

Dana White is just exaggerating like always because the UFC is now trying to earn money on WMMA. They're trying to push WMMA hoping that they can create another star. They're also trying to push attractive female fighters and are giving them important places on main cards. From what I read certain female fighters got high ratings on TV like Holly Holm and Valentina Shevchenko, they also tried to push Miesha Tate and Paige VanZant.

I don't think pushing WMMA so much is a good thing, especially if they're just promoting women who look good instead of promoting talent. While the quality is slowly improving, it still isn't good enough to be compared to men technique-wise and in terms of well rounded MMA skills. A lot of people are complaining that there are so many WMMA fights on the main cards and that the quality of those fights is really low.

IMO it would be better if they didn't give WMMA so much exposure until it really reaches some new level. Just show us the elite fighters like Valentina Shevchenko, Joanna etc. to make it look good and make the others work hard to get exposure. If they're just trying to sell us every single woman under UFC contract as the next big thing it will only backfire and people won't take it seriously anymore. For example they tried to sell us this good looking Mexican girl Alexa Grasso as some legitimate Mexican boxer and then in her fight against Felice Herrig she looked like some beginner who just had some cardio kickboxing classes. When things like this happen then people watching obviously think that this is the ceiling of women fighting while in reality you have a lot of women fighters who are way better, just in maybe not so many of them in MMA yet. Like I said, this can only backfire and further marginalize WMMA.

This happened with women boxing in the 90s when they tried to make it the next big thing while the talent simply wasn't there yet. They promoted some fighters based on looks alone like Mia St. John. As a result boxing fans started to look at women boxing as a massive joke. It took like 20 years during which some real improvements were made and more talent arrived that people started to take it seriously again and now the new generation of women boxers looks really good and some of them like Katie Taylor and Claressa Shields are forcing their way on main cards based on talent alone.

Last edited by al89; 10-Apr-17 at 01:27.
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Old 10-Apr-17, 02:32
jstewart jstewart is offline
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Default Re: Dana White: "I didn't see the women thing coming"

Quote:
Originally Posted by al89 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Dana White is just exaggerating like always because the UFC is now trying to earn money on WMMA. They're trying to push WMMA hoping that they can create another star. They're also trying to push attractive female fighters and are giving them important places on main cards. From what I read certain female fighters got high ratings on TV like Holly Holm and Valentina Shevchenko, they also tried to push Miesha Tate and Paige VanZant.

I don't think pushing WMMA so much is a good thing, especially if they're just promoting women who look good instead of promoting talent. While the quality is slowly improving, it still isn't good enough to be compared to men technique-wise and in terms of well rounded MMA skills. A lot of people are complaining that there are so many WMMA fights on the main cards and that the quality of those fights is really low.

IMO it would be better if they didn't give WMMA so much exposure until it really reaches some new level. Just show us the elite fighters like Valentina Shevchenko, Joanna etc. to make it look good and make the others work hard to get exposure. If they're just trying to sell us every single woman under UFC contract as the next big thing it will only backfire and people won't take it seriously anymore. For example they tried to sell us this good looking Mexican girl Alexa Grasso as some legitimate Mexican boxer and then in her fight against Felice Herrig she looked like some beginner who just had some cardio kickboxing classes. When things like this happen then people watching obviously think that this is the ceiling of women fighting while in reality you have a lot of women fighters who are way better, just in maybe not so many of them in MMA yet. Like I said, this can only backfire and further marginalize WMMA.

This happened with women boxing in the 90s when they tried to make it the next big thing while the talent simply wasn't there yet. They promoted some fighters based on looks alone like Mia St. John. As a result boxing fans started to look at women boxing as a massive joke. It took like 20 years during which some real improvements were made and more talent arrived that people started to take it seriously again and now the new generation of women boxers looks really good and some of them like Katie Taylor and Claressa Shields are forcing their way on main cards based on talent alone.
my thoughts rhonda rousey and meisha tate made the womens fight seen now that they are both gone we shall see how popular it will be
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Old 10-Apr-17, 18:34
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Default Re: Dana White: "I didn't see the women thing coming"

Quote:
Originally Posted by al89 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Dana White is just exaggerating like always because the UFC is now trying to earn money on WMMA. They're trying to push WMMA hoping that they can create another star. They're also trying to push attractive female fighters and are giving them important places on main cards. From what I read certain female fighters got high ratings on TV like Holly Holm and Valentina Shevchenko, they also tried to push Miesha Tate and Paige VanZant.

I don't think pushing WMMA so much is a good thing, especially if they're just promoting women who look good instead of promoting talent. While the quality is slowly improving, it still isn't good enough to be compared to men technique-wise and in terms of well rounded MMA skills. A lot of people are complaining that there are so many WMMA fights on the main cards and that the quality of those fights is really low.

IMO it would be better if they didn't give WMMA so much exposure until it really reaches some new level. Just show us the elite fighters like Valentina Shevchenko, Joanna etc. to make it look good and make the others work hard to get exposure. If they're just trying to sell us every single woman under UFC contract as the next big thing it will only backfire and people won't take it seriously anymore. For example they tried to sell us this good looking Mexican girl Alexa Grasso as some legitimate Mexican boxer and then in her fight against Felice Herrig she looked like some beginner who just had some cardio kickboxing classes. When things like this happen then people watching obviously think that this is the ceiling of women fighting while in reality you have a lot of women fighters who are way better, just in maybe not so many of them in MMA yet. Like I said, this can only backfire and further marginalize WMMA.

This happened with women boxing in the 90s when they tried to make it the next big thing while the talent simply wasn't there yet. They promoted some fighters based on looks alone like Mia St. John. As a result boxing fans started to look at women boxing as a massive joke. It took like 20 years during which some real improvements were made and more talent arrived that people started to take it seriously again and now the new generation of women boxers looks really good and some of them like Katie Taylor and Claressa Shields are forcing their way on main cards based on talent alone.
*sigh*

Quote:
While the quality is slowly improving, it still isn't good enough to be compared to men technique-wise and in terms of well rounded MMA skills. A lot of people are complaining that there are so many WMMA fights on the main cards and that the quality of those fights is really low.
Where are you reading/hearing this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by al89 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Dana White is just exaggerating like always because the UFC is now trying to earn money on WMMA. They're trying to push WMMA hoping that they can create another star. They're also trying to push attractive female fighters and are giving them important places on main cards. From what I read certain female fighters got high ratings on TV like Holly Holm and Valentina Shevchenko, they also tried to push Miesha Tate and Paige VanZant.

I don't think pushing WMMA so much is a good thing, especially if they're just promoting women who look good instead of promoting talent. While the quality is slowly improving, it still isn't good enough to be compared to men technique-wise and in terms of well rounded MMA skills. A lot of people are complaining that there are so many WMMA fights on the main cards and that the quality of those fights is really low.

IMO it would be better if they didn't give WMMA so much exposure until it really reaches some new level. Just show us the elite fighters like Valentina Shevchenko, Joanna etc. to make it look good and make the others work hard to get exposure. If they're just trying to sell us every single woman under UFC contract as the next big thing it will only backfire and people won't take it seriously anymore. For example they tried to sell us this good looking Mexican girl Alexa Grasso as some legitimate Mexican boxer and then in her fight against Felice Herrig she looked like some beginner who just had some cardio kickboxing classes. When things like this happen then people watching obviously think that this is the ceiling of women fighting while in reality you have a lot of women fighters who are way better, just in maybe not so many of them in MMA yet. Like I said, this can only backfire and further marginalize WMMA.

This happened with women boxing in the 90s when they tried to make it the next big thing while the talent simply wasn't there yet. They promoted some fighters based on looks alone like Mia St. John. As a result boxing fans started to look at women boxing as a massive joke. It took like 20 years during which some real improvements were made and more talent arrived that people started to take it seriously again and now the new generation of women boxers looks really good and some of them like Katie Taylor and Claressa Shields are forcing their way on main cards based on talent alone.
*sigh*

Quote:
While the quality is slowly improving, it still isn't good enough to be compared to men technique-wise and in terms of well rounded MMA skills. A lot of people are complaining that there are so many WMMA fights on the main cards and that the quality of those fights is really low.
Where are you reading/hearing this?

Added after 1 15 minutes:

They tried and failed with Paige. They're not going to make her a thing. She'll get small-card fights, but you probably won't hear Dana mention her name again.

Quote:
it still isn't good enough to be compared to men technique-wise and in terms of well rounded MMA skills.
That's a false statement. The women's competitive pool is not as deep, but a quality fighter is a quality fighter, male or female. When you watch a televised UFC event, RARELY does it look like a training session. When you're in an organized MMA fight, your training comes to bear, but so does your opponent's.

MMA is NOT jiu-jitsu, where a match can literally last forever and can be a thing of beauty if you are into technical aspects of the sport. But a BJJ purple belt is the same whether you are male or female (although, yes, the true measure of a belt itself may vary from place-to-place).

Joanna Jedrzejczyk (sp?) is highly skilled, but her fights lack any sex appeal. I'm not calling her "boring", because she did have a good win vs Letourneau in November 2015, but that was the night Holly Holm shocked the world, so the Joanna J result was like meh. And that one along with her 2 fights last year were also decisions. She's undefeated in her 13-fight pro career, so that's a selling point, but it's gone to the judges 8 out of those 13 times.

I'm not a fan of the 115s, because they typically lack knockout power, but if Calvillo can get a few more stoppages over the next year or so, we should expect to see her move up the ladder pretty quickly. But even vs Gonzalez, although she was a heavy favorite to win, Gonzalez was able to keep it close and still had a chance to win it in the 3rd.
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Last edited by KillerCrushes; 10-Apr-17 at 18:31.
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Old 10-Apr-17, 22:08
brooksie brooksie is offline
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Default Re: Dana White: "I didn't see the women thing coming"

"Dana White is just exaggerating like always because the UFC is now trying to earn money on WMMA."

Dana White is a promoter, so some exaggeration is to be expected. That said, I'm not sure trying to make money on WMMA is some sort of indictment. Should they not be trying to make money from it? Don't you want the women to be paid well so they can continue to train f/t and not have to work other jobs? That's how they'll get better.

"They're trying to push WMMA hoping that they can create another star."

What's wrong with that? It's a star-driven sport.

"They're also trying to push attractive female fighters and are giving them important places on main cards."

Yeah, that's kind of "the way of the world" isn't it?

"From what I read certain female fighters got high ratings on TV like Holly Holm and Valentina Shevchenko, they also tried to push Miesha Tate and Paige VanZant."

The two halves of that statement don't really synch up but just to deal with the first part, yes some of the female fights have drawn some of the highest ratings. That part is true.

"I don't think pushing WMMA so much is a good thing, especially if they're just promoting women who look good instead of promoting talent."

I don't see any indication that's what's happening. I know a lot of people will offer Paige Vanzant as an example but I don't agree she has no talent. She's young, 7 - 3 (not a bad record) and has only lost to top contenders in the division - Michelle, Rose and Tecia Torres. There's no question Paige was a potential golden girl and probably got more than her fair share of promotion from the UFC but, it's a private business that can promote who they like. That said, Paige still has to do her part, which is to win fights. The UFC can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear all on their own. Paige's future success still rests far more on her shoulders than it does on the UFC. They can only help, she has to be the driver.

"While the quality is slowly improving, it still isn't good enough to be compared to men technique-wise and in terms of well rounded MMA skills."

Given the biological differences, I'm not sure that's something that anyone should ever expect. Take KO power as an example. I'm not sure we'll ever see parity in that, nor should we expect to. As a fan of WMMA, something like the lack of KO's is offset by the difference in grappling, which tends to be more creative and varied on the female side (see Cynthia Calvillo). The argument the men are better will always be there anytime someone insists on comparing the two. WMMA is it's own thing and shouldn't be dependent on how well someone thinks females compare with the males. That's a bit of a red herring, IMO.

"A lot of people are complaining that there are so many WMMA fights on the main cards and that the quality of those fights is really low."

That's a far too general statement to deal with. You'd have to bring up specific fights. Also, I don't give much credence to phrases like "a lot of people..." Really? How many are a lot? Which people are these? Knowledgeable or no-nothing MMA fansite trolls. Don't forget, there is also a fair amount misogyny in MMA. You still find people who don't, and will likely never, want to see women fighting.

"IMO it would be better if they didn't give WMMA so much exposure until it really reaches some new level."

Uh, it's a business. That's not realistic at all.

"Just show us the elite fighters like Valentina Shevchenko, Joanna etc. to make it look good and make the others work hard to get exposure."

They have female divisions and the women in them have to fight. It's not like every male fight is a barn-burner, so let's not make a double standard for WMMA.

"If they're just trying to sell us every single woman under UFC contract as the next big thing it will only backfire and people won't take it seriously anymore."

That's clearly not the case. There are a ton of women under UFC contract most people have never heard of and get very little push from the UFC.

"For example they tried to sell us this good looking Mexican girl Alexa Grasso as some legitimate Mexican boxer and then in her fight against Felice Herrig she looked like some beginner who just had some cardio kickboxing classes."

That might be legitimate view if that fight was the only fight of hers a person saw. But to anyone who's seen her other fights, have followed her career, she did not perform as well as she has in the past and looked as though she may have fallen victim to the legendary "octagon jitters". I think it's terribly unfair to judge any fighter based on one fight. I also don't have much sympathy for the "they tried to sell us..." kind of complaint. No one can sell you anything you don't want. Don't like the product, don't buy it. You're not a victim.

"When things like this happen then people watching obviously think that this is the ceiling of women fighting while in reality you have a lot of women fighters who are way better, just in maybe not so many of them in MMA yet. Like I said, this can only backfire and further marginalize WMMA."

...People watching obviously think...

That could only be true if the "people" don't know anything about WMMA. You're attributing ignorance to them is an amazingly glib on your part. The actual truth is, you have no possible way of knowing that's true. It's an opinion.

"This happened with women boxing in the 90s when they tried to make it the next big thing while the talent simply wasn't there yet. They promoted some fighters based on looks alone like Mia St. John. As a result boxing fans started to look at women boxing as a massive joke."

I agree, there were some fighters, like Lucia Rijker who were clearly much better fighters than the ones who were getting the lion's share of the attention but any true fan of women's boxing knew that.

"It took like 20 years during which some real improvements were made and more talent arrived that people started to take it seriously again and now the new generation of women boxers looks really good and some of them like Katie Taylor and Claressa Shields are forcing their way on main cards based on talent alone."

It remains to be seen, with the rise of WMMA, whether there is any space for women's boxing in the combat sports realm. There are some good fighters, but is there any longer a market for it? I mean in N. America, it's obviously bigger in Europe.

Last edited by brooksie; 11-Apr-17 at 06:27.
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Old 10-Apr-17, 22:44
funwrestler funwrestler is offline
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Default Re: Dana White: "I didn't see the women thing coming"

When I see a match like Calvillo Vs Gonzalez, there is no way we can say Women are less technical than Men. Calvillo applied perfectly executed Guillotine choke and is such a dynamic strikers. She reminds me a bit of Frankie Edgar, in her female version.
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Old 12-Apr-17, 23:58
al89 al89 is offline
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Default Re: Dana White: "I didn't see the women thing coming"

Why are you so defensive and aggressive? I'm the biggest fan of women fighting, but I'm not going to be fooled into UFC hype and blindly repeat what Dana White out of all people is saying. This is a man who not so long ago said that women will never fight in the UFC and was against it.

I'm just putting things into realistic perspective.

You have to understand that they're using WMMA to create some instant stars and then throw them away like garbage immediately just to create some new quick stars and new ridiculous hype trains.

The WMMA would grow better outside of the UFC.

I guess you're just not familiar with combat sports and how the UFC functions. UFC is basically a lot like WWE and a lot of the fanbase shares the same mentality. They like to be fooled and just look for instant stars and personalities. You don't understand that UFC is essentially very bad for MMA and with that also for WMMA. The ridiculous Ronda hype made the entire sport look like a joke after it backfired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brooksie [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Dana White is a promoter, so some exaggeration is to be expected. That said, I'm not sure trying to make money on WMMA is some sort of indictment. Should they not be trying to make money from it? Don't you want the women to be paid well so they can continue to train f/t and not have to work other jobs? That's how they'll get better.

[...]

What's wrong with that? It's a star-driven sport.

[...]

Yeah, that's kind of "the way of the world" isn't it?
Why the hell are you quoting me sentence by sentence? That's like the most retarded way of debating with people and it usually leads to completely missing the larger point, which is what your post did.

I don't care about how much money the UFC makes, I'm not working for them. Are you? If not what is it to you? I'm saying what is good for the sport and what isn't. And since we're discussing the talent and the reality of WMMA the UFC profits are totally irrelevant. I definitely want the fighters to get paid but you need to understand that whatever the UFC makes doesn't go back into fighter's pockets, why do you think the company sold for 4 billion $? Because it's basically some form of scam with illegitimate format of competition and the fighters are getting ripped off.

Promoters are exaggerating all the time but there's a difference between promoting your fighter or just being plain ridiculous like Dana White. There are plenty of promoters in the fight sports that don't say ridiculous things like this. The reason why Dana White does it is because the uncritical UFC fanbase gives him a pass. Like I said, they're like pro-wrestling, they like to be fooled and listen to comic statements. If someone like Bob Arum in boxing would be saying such things he'd become a total joke in the boxing community which is a lot more demanding and actually wants to see a serious sport.

Quote:
She's young, 7 - 3 (not a bad record)
7-3 is a bad record. That's another thing that's wrong with the UFC, they don't build up their fighters and instantly feed them to the dogs.

There's a reason why in boxing (a serious sport) fighters have 20-0 type of records before they start fighting the top competition. But in the UFC I'm supposed to believe that someone who hasn't even fought 10 times is an elite fighter? That goes to male MMA as well, we saw that with the likes of Weidman who was hyped as some sort of ATG when he was like 8-0.

A 7-3 record is basically a journeyman record.

Quote:
As a fan of WMMA, something like the lack of KO's is offset by the difference in grappling, which tends to be more creative and varied on the female side (see Cynthia Calvillo).
Grappling is creative and varied in WMMA because the technical level isn't that high. In male MMA everyone on the elite level has now pretty much mastered defensive grappling and it's very rare to see some spectacular submissions. WMMA is on the level where male MMA was in the 90s where wrestlers had a very limited knowledge of BJJ and often got caught. That was a time when we saw a lot of "creative grappling" and spectacular submissions. Now you don't see that because more technique means more shutting down and neutralizing.

Quote:
That's a far too general statement to deal with. You'd have to bring up specific fights. Also, I don't give much credence to phrases like "a lot of people..." Really? How many are a lot? Which people are these? Knowledgeable or no-nothing MMA fansite trolls. Don't forget, there is also a fair amount misogyny in MMA. You still find people who don't, and will likely never, want to see women fighting.
I'm in contact with people who train and compete in MMA as well as a lot of old school fans. When I say MMA fans I mean those people. I'm around MMA circles a lot and I train boxing, if you think my contacts don't represent MMA fans then ignore it or what do you want me to say? I mean, what the hell do you expect me to do, spend thousands of dollars and conduct some extensive research that would cover the entire MMA community so that you will be happy? The fact is that those people have followed MMA for more than 10 years. They don't represent the entire fanbase (I never said that they did anyway) but they represent something and they know the sentiment of the MMA community since they're on MMA media all the time and hang out with other people who follow the sport. I don't care about the UFC fanbase and the casual fans anyway, they're mostly really clueless about fighting, but given many comments on social media and forums they seem to share the sentiment as well.

Quote:
It's not like every male fight is a barn-burner, so let's not make a double standard for WMMA.
You can have a boring technical fight and an exciting non-technical fight. How exciting the fight is (to casuals) doesn't say anything about the quality of fighting. In fact, the less technique is involved, the more likely it is that the fight will please the UFC fans because they want to see haymakers and wild action. Technical fighters often neutralize each other.

Last edited by al89; 13-Apr-17 at 00:07.
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Old 13-Apr-17, 02:58
brooksie brooksie is offline
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Default Re: Dana White: "I didn't see the women thing coming"

"Why are you so defensive and aggressive?"

I don't think I was. No one else expressed that thought. I just gave my reactions to your comments and I don't think I did it in an aggressive way. Like you, I have my own thoughts and, like you, I expressed them.

"I'm the biggest fan of women fighting, but I'm not going to be fooled into UFC hype and blindly repeat what Dana White out of all people is saying. This is a man who not so long ago said that women will never fight in the UFC and was against it.

I'm just putting things into realistic perspective."


I think the gist of your comments is that you don't much care for the UFC. You're not alone. There are definitely a sub-group of MMA fans with a hate-on for that organization. But, if you want to keep it real, then it has to be acknowledged they are the industry leader and, like it or not, what they do matters. Also along that same vein, keeping it real would acknowledge that Dana very publically reversed his position and has said on many occasions he has no regret about that. Yes, he said never once. Thankfully Ronda came along and inspired him to change his mind. I think he should get credit for where he's at now, not be damned by a viewpoint he no longer holds. We all have the right to change our minds, don't we?
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