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  #21  
Old 31-Jan-15, 03:30
vpose113 vpose113 is offline
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Default Re: Underground Wrestling Community and Going Forward

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Originally Posted by vevelane [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Well, this was supposed to be my blogging day, but I got a tip that there was an interesting discussion going on here (and also that Diablo might be spreading around some of my "early days in the scene" stories), and I thought weighing in on this thread would be a neat substitute for blogging.

So where's the real-life, in-person wrestling scene coming from, where's it going, and how can it (or can it at all) be built-up/shaped/revived? This is going to be a long post, with a lot of my thoughts on the matter, so you've been warned… (Just adding this now that I finished writing, I seriously do apologize for the length.)

Responding to a description of some very high-stakes women's matches, thatguylouis says:

BUT it was already said that

So it seems there's this idea of a perfect match that's real, that's organic, that has meaning and context and backstory, and that is very rare. And there's a desire to "bring back" the kind of environment where Those Matches happen between women. But that's hard to do.

Here's the bad news (there is good news later, never fear). Setting out directly to create Those Matches is 100% impossible. You can create a video "in that style" or an "homage" event, but then you'll be missing the most important ingredient that makes Those Matches so exciting, the context. Those Matches are rare, because they "just happen" when conditions are right. They're the highlights, the one match you remember out of 10 or 20 or 100 that were more average. And if, somehow, it were possible for Those Matches to happen all the time, for the women it would be exhausting and off-putting to have "pride on the line" every time, and for the guys, Those Matches would no longer be special -- somehow the stakes would have to be raised again.

The only way to create Those Matches is to create the scene and community where they can happen. A little more bad news -- that's hard to do. Sentiments like Diablo's penpal's and NewYork's are only going to bring out professional women. I certainly know a lot of phenomenal professional women - myself included - who love wrestling and what they do, but in the context of building a scene, a pure-pro membership both misses the point and makes the community smaller. How to create the right environment? Age-old question -- how to get more women to wrestle?

Women like wrestling for all kinds of reasons - for sport for competition; to do something tough, or adventurous, or even silly; to hang out with friends; maybe this one will try anything once; maybe this one likes to show off; maybe this one loves costumes, characters, superheroes, WWE… (Sidenote: judging from recent conversations with other Doom Maidens ladies and how many say they'd love to do pirate, vampire, princess, etc. videos, that last one's actually pretty big.)

Now the good news! The scenes and communities where all this fun stuff can happen are real. They come and go, but they have existed and can exist. I remember a very active and vibrant scene when I was first getting into wrestling -- indeed, it's how I got into wrestling.

I think back on the events that I attended then -- events that Diablo and Hanz have described a bit already -- and there were opportunities for women to wrestle there for any and all of the reasons I mentioned.

Amateur Female Jello Wrestling was fantastic -- mostly women would show up, goof off, do wacky, messy pro-style matches, and have a great time. But all kinds of matches would happen. I brought my never-wrestled-in-her-life sister one night, and for her first time, I tried to let her win -- but she absolutely refused! Least competitive match ever! But fun, and it was great my sister felt comfortable enough to come out and try. On the other hand, the first women who came together to form Doom Maidens were jello wrestlers who wanted to learn more competitive wrestling. And on the other other hand, one night I had one of Those Matches… A former friend and her boyfriend had really insulted my boyfriend. Since it was a women's only wrestling event, the men weren't allowed to get physical about the situation -- but we ladies were. The slippery jello made it impossible for either of us to hold on well enough to score a win, but we were determined and just kept fighting until the MC had to stop it and move along the night.

I think back to the fetish and BDSM parties I went to as well. There was so much going on -- someone who came for the flogging might want to jump in and give the wrestling a try. A domme might want to order her sub to take a wrestle-beating. And a wrestler tired after a few matches might want to watch or try out some of the other activities.

AND I think back on the Grapple Den parties. Again, there were so many types of matches. Training for newcomers at the beginning, matches between friends who came together and pairs who just met that night, women's matches, mixed matches, men's matches, mini-sessions, "traditional matches" between regulars who fought each other every single time… Something for everyone to do but also something for everyone to see, no one sidelined or in the spotlight the whole time, chances to fight and chances to chill out.

So after all this writing, what's my point? It's this: any event created with the intention to make a show of a certain type of women's match has the potential to be a cool event, but it will be more of the professional and less of the community. Creating community where cool things just happen is a super-imprecise procedure. There are a few things not to do, but as for what to do…

It takes a lot of events, environments that are low-pressure and welcoming to newcomers, and it takes time for it to build up and for the friendships and rivalries that add intensity to the scene and to matches to develop. It takes luck, and the right moment, and giving up rigid expectations. It takes a lot of people to make community. Probably one person can't force it to happen. But one person can try…and it may not go anywhere. But that person can try again, or another person can try, and as long as someone keeps striking sparks one time one of them will catch. A second person will get inspired, more people will take notice… It's super hard to do except when it just happens, and when it does, it's worth it.

And every time one of these moments happens, it's going to be different than moments before. As a lot of people just noted in this thread, New York City right now is a lot different that it was even a few years ago. If any of the underground wrestling sparks floating around here currently do catch, we'd be looking at a Brooklyn scene rather than a Manhattan scene. Elsewhere it's been discussed how women's wrestling styles and their access to training has been changing; a current scene would undoubtedly include more jiu-jitsu than any scene from a pre-UFC time. Fashion changes in sports and fitness as much as anywhere; in the "real" world I feel like I see a lot of yoga pants lately -- will they make their way into underground wrestling?

No two scene moments will look just alike. If the whole idea is about the real, authentic, and organic, they can't. They grow out of their times and places. But if the whole idea is about the real and authentic, the feeling should be what counts.
All I can say is you have the most real and awesome looking victory poses I've ever seen. You know exactly where to have your foot rested on the losers face and flex perfectly. Well done.
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  #22  
Old 31-Jan-15, 03:58
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DiabloNYC DiabloNYC is offline
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Default Re: Underground Wrestling Community and Going Forward

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Originally Posted by elliebi001 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Crystal Club (?) or Hellfire Club where women wrestled quite often. I believe it was in Manhattan. There are many videos of their fights on YouTube. It might have had another name, too.
If you're thinking of the Hellfire Club in the Meatpacking District, the reportedly off-the-wall BDSM & sex club, then it sure was in Manhattan. I've heard stories about it from older members of the local BDSM community (they often mention a club called The Vault as well). I've heard there'd been some pretty gnarly, body-fluidy wild action goin' down in there. Here's a facebook post that features comments from people recollecting days at Hellfire, plus period photos of the neighborhood: [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
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  #23  
Old 31-Jan-15, 08:19
Cooper Cooper is offline
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Default Re: Underground Wrestling Community and Going Forward

The Vault...now THAT was a true NYC experience!
Dark, gritty and underground.

The rents in Manhattan are outrageous and it's a shame that there are no good wrestling or fetish parties here anymore. (or very few.)
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  #24  
Old 31-Jan-15, 10:05
WStreet316 WStreet316 is offline
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Default Re: Underground Wrestling Community and Going Forward

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Originally Posted by Cooper [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
The Vault...now THAT was a true NYC experience!
Dark, gritty and underground.

The rents in Manhattan are outrageous and it's a shame that there are no good wrestling or fetish parties here anymore. (or very few.)
Hopefully Doom Maidens will have wrestling events again soon.
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  #25  
Old 31-Jan-15, 11:11
chabrol chabrol is offline
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Default Re: Underground Wrestling Community and Going Forward

VeVe foreVer!
With loVe Vrom Vrance
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  #26  
Old 31-Jan-15, 12:59
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DiabloNYC DiabloNYC is offline
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Default Re: Underground Wrestling Community and Going Forward

Thanks @[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooper [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
The rents in Manhattan are outrageous and it's a shame that there are no good wrestling or fetish parties here anymore. (or very few.)
Stay tuned guys. I've got a very full plate right now, but it I've been seeing people are getting the wrestling party / event itch again. As much as parties and events come and go, I think so does the desire for parties and events (NYC transient culture).

I'm working with my contacts in the alt community in Brooklyn, but it will take a little time to build up for a party (see @[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] 's post for discussion on community building), but I am going forward with the outreach efforts.

For a live event - like a live filming event, that is "easier" to put together. We're juggling a lot of filming right now, but event planning remains on the To-Do.

But also, do you guys know Thrash? He's a fellow we work with. Do you guys know the "new" dungeon called Parthenon? It's in Manhattan, midtown around 5th Ave somewhere. Thrash has been recommending we check out the parties at Parthenon (and you all NYC guys should too). Apparently it's a nice space, with fetish parties with a good turn-out. I know some wrestlers have done sessions there, so there is possibly [I]some[I] potential for wrestling. I'll have to check it out myself. (Maybe @[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] wants to as well?)

Guys, you're party-desires are great. I'm often bogged down with production-related work, but just keep asking about parties/events/etc., and we'll keep on truckin.

Keep asking, keep encouraging. And keep your eye out - we may be presenting at TES this year.
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  #27  
Old 31-Jan-15, 13:00
bruce911187 bruce911187 is offline
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Default Re: Underground Wrestling Community and Going Forward

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Originally Posted by vevelane [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Here's the bad news. Setting out directly to create Those Matches is 100% impossible. You can create a video "in that style" or an "homage" event, but then you'll be missing the most important ingredient that makes Those Matches so exciting, the context. Those Matches are rare, because they "just happen" when conditions are right.
Until this topic came up I had never once said anything critical to a female wrestler. I admire them, respect them, adore them. But you are the third one to come into this conversation and say real wrestling is impossible to create and I strongly digress with that opinion.

Indeed, like the others your remarks bear grim affirmation to the decline of the whole scene and genre. To the absorption of erotic female wrestling by the soft porn industry and the faked products it produces and to the absorption of real women`s wrestling by the martial arts crowd. Catch is simply womens grappling by another name, which isn`t all bad I do admit. I do respect the martial art for preserving something real about it all.

I don`t dispute your facts just your conclusion when you say it is impossible.
It was here before and it was vibrant and thriving. It`s a man`s world and man can make it happen if he wants.

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  #28  
Old 31-Jan-15, 13:09
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Default Re: Underground Wrestling Community and Going Forward

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Originally Posted by bruce911187 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
But you are the third one to come into this conversation and say real wrestling is impossible to create and I strongly digress with that opinion.
She's not saying "real wrestling" is impossible. She is saying that trying to create "real wrestling moments" via contrived methods is inherently flawed and/or will very rarely have the exact desired effect.

Quote:
Setting out directly to create Those Matches is 100% impossible. [...] Those Matches are rare, because they "just happen" when conditions are right.
(bolding emphasis mine)

She's saying that creating "real" organic experiences requires first the creation of a community. A live, in-person community. But the fostering of that community takes time, and, I daresay, requires a different motivation than wanting to create real wrestling moments. If you reach for it, it will be so hard to catch, but if you stop reaching... do you know what I mean? This is what she was aiming at.

Last edited by DiabloNYC; 31-Jan-15 at 13:12. Reason: adding quote
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  #29  
Old 31-Jan-15, 13:23
bruce911187 bruce911187 is offline
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Default Re: Underground Wrestling Community and Going Forward

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Originally Posted by mixedwrestlingnyc [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
She's not saying "real wrestling" is impossible. She is saying that trying to create "real wrestling moments" via contrived methods is inherently flawed and/or will very rarely have the exact desired effect.



(bolding emphasis mine)

She's saying that creating "real" organic experiences requires first the creation of a community. A live, in-person community. But the fostering of that community takes time, and, I daresay, requires a different motivation than wanting to create real wrestling moments. If you reach for it, it will be so hard to catch, but if you stop reaching... do you know what I mean? This is what she was aiming at.
It was hard to figure out what she meant by all that, wasn`t really sure where she stands. I just thought if she responds to the man`s world song it might be fun
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  #30  
Old 31-Jan-15, 14:30
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vevelane vevelane is offline
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Default Re: Underground Wrestling Community and Going Forward

@[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

Well, I see Diablo already helpfully stepped in and interpreted my post for you.

Yes, indeed, I was saying that you can't force one of those special moments when "real" wrestling happens. By "real" I meant a match that's more than a performance or a job to the combatants, that really matters to them, and where the audience can feel that extra energy. I wasn't saying that type of match is impossible, just that it can only be brought about indirectly by nurturing a scene where it can happen.

But if your definition of "real" is different -- if, for example, your definition is "a match with no martial arts" or "a match with X rules in X style" -- I can definitely see how we would disagree. You're right; anyone can hire (and, if he's passionate enough, train) women to do that style of match all day long. That's the "pure-professional" vs. community-based approach I was talking about.

You're right; in a man's world (the goading was cute), it's very easy to get women as performers. In a shared world, though, there's potential for women as performers but also as participants. It's all about what you want.

I was also saying that in my definition of "real" a match wouldn't have a predetermined look or style. I would see imposing those restrictions as making it less real since they might not reflect the women's own skills and inclinations. But that may be another way we disagree about "real."

Good news: both our definitions of "real" are possible, through different methods. The world's big enough for both.
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