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  #1  
Old 24-Aug-17, 23:07
brooksie brooksie is offline
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Default Boxing vs MMA

Good piece, with lots of input from Miesha Tate, on another accomplished female boxer looking to leave the sport for MMA due to lack of
opportunity:

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Old 26-Aug-17, 10:30
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Default Re: Boxing vs MMA

Good find...pretty solid article, but one line jumped out at me:

"In boxing, one loss takes you out of the equation."

That's just not true because there is no equation!

One of the primary differences between the businesses of MMA and boxing is that, in MMA (UFC, Bellator, Invicta, etc), the organizations are the promotion. In boxing, the individuals are the promotion. That obviously makes a huge difference in the way proceeds are split, but it is also exactly one of the reasons the UFC was able to grow as quickly as it did. It's also just more interesting to a growing segment of the population. Today, a radio guy said that boxing is for "old people who have a lot of money, while MMA is for young people with no money" (paraphrased), and he's right.

As for the subject of the article, midway through reading, I had already forgotten her name. Maybe there's a big crowd out there eager to pay to watch her box, but I'm not seeing how she'll move the needle now if she's already been at it 10 years and is still unknown. Even though she's a newbie at groundfighting and has to learn the kicking game, in moving to MMA, she does have 4 key things in her favor:

1) she's a fighter
2) she's a champion
3) she knows how to avoid being hit
4) she's young enough to become a very skilled martial artist by her mid-30s
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Old 26-Aug-17, 14:50
al89 al89 is offline
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Default Re: Boxing vs MMA

Very dishonest words by Amanda Serrano.

Women boxing is on the rise and there are women boxers getting a lot of attention lately like Claressa Shields, Katie Taylor, Mikaela Mayer and Christina Hammer in Germany. Those girls are well promoted by their promoters, much better than most girls in the UFC actually. She can only speak for herself and not for entire women boxing. There are only a handful women in MMA who are getting big money and fame and most of that was due to Ronda Rousey who was a one-off. Some women in the UFC have part time Jobs and don't really earn much money.

Amanda Serrano is just bitter because she didn't get noticed and couldn't make it in boxing and isn't marketable.

She lost to a hot Swedish girl Frida Wallberg who outboxed her and beat her and destroyed her undefeated record. And yeah, the boxing world is tough on people who lose, but that's a good thing. No one wants to see fighters with tons of losses on their record, so you either protect your 0 or deal with the consequences.

By the way, this is Frida Wallberg, the girl who beat Amanda Serrano:







I guess it's hard for Amanda Serrano as a fiery "tough" Latina to accept that she was beaten by a sexy feminine looking white girl, maybe that's why she is so bitter about everything
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Old 26-Aug-17, 18:40
brooksie brooksie is offline
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Default Re: Boxing vs MMA

<<Amanda Serrano is just bitter because she didn't get noticed and couldn't make it in boxing and isn't marketable.>>

I think it's a stretch to say what's motivating someone. You can make a guess, but that's all it is. Anyway, if women's boxing is "on the rise" it's very slight. Heather Hardy was just on the MMA Hour saying much the same thing. She specifically mentioned the purses. For example, she wants to fight Jelena Mrdjenovich but says she may have to go to Canada to do it. Jelena, she said, can make approx. 30K per bout but was only offered 7K to fight in the US.

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Hardy's interview starts around 1:29:45

I think money is one of the best ways to measure the how well a sport is doing. Women's boxing may be gaining a bit more exposure in other parts of the world but not so much in the US, or Canada, for that matter. We rarely hear much about it, it's not covered to any great extent and is really quite low profile. Very few combat sports fans here could name any Canadian female boxers. So I think there's a way to go yet. Hopefully one day. One onf the things that could help to promote boxing world-wide is tonight's fight between Mayweather and McGregor, if Mayweather wins. Personally, I hope he does. I'm not a big fan of "spectacle" fights and would prefer McGregor back in the UFC, doing what he does best.
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Old 26-Aug-17, 21:06
al89 al89 is offline
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Default Re: Boxing vs MMA

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Originally Posted by brooksie [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
<<Amanda Serrano is just bitter because she didn't get noticed and couldn't make it in boxing and isn't marketable.>>

I think it's a stretch to say what's motivating someone. You can make a guess, but that's all it is. Anyway, if women's boxing is "on the rise" it's very slight. Heather Hardy was just on the MMA Hour saying much the same thing. She specifically mentioned the purses. For example, she wants to fight Jelena Mrdjenovich but says she may have to go to Canada to do it. Jelena, she said, can make approx. 30K per bout but was only offered 7K to fight in the US.

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Hardy's interview starts around 1:29:45

I think money is one of the best ways to measure the how well a sport is doing. Women's boxing may be gaining a bit more exposure in other parts of the world but not so much in the US, or Canada, for that matter. We rarely hear much about it, it's not covered to any great extent and is really quite low profile. Very few combat sports fans here could name any Canadian female boxers. So I think there's a way to go yet. Hopefully one day. One onf the things that could help to promote boxing world-wide is tonight's fight between Mayweather and McGregor, if Mayweather wins. Personally, I hope he does. I'm not a big fan of "spectacle" fights and would prefer McGregor back in the UFC, doing what he does best.
Women boxing is on the rise because unlike in the previous times you now have a generation of talented women amateur boxers coming up, girls who are winning gold medals and get a lot of attention before even turning up pro. Claressa Shields and Katie Taylor are the most known examples but there are more of them coming up.

Katie Taylor is Irish and is fighting in the UK for Eddie Hearn. She already made a lot of money before turning pro ( [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] ) and is making solid money now as a pro despite the fact that she still hasn't faced quality opposition yet and is still being built up and fights every 2 months. Claressa Shields recently headlined a showtime card. Mayweather promotions signed Savannah Marshall, the girl who beat Claressa in the amateurs, and she's fighting on the MayMac card today. Then there's also Mikaela Mayer (another solid amateur boxer) who signed with Top Rank and is also getting relatively a lot of attention.

Those girls are more technically sound than women boxers of the past and have a vast amateur experience in dealing with different styles of boxing. I was really surprised at how good they are.

As far as the money is concerned, fighting is an individual sport and the only way to make money is if you look for yourself and become a big draw and get the public interested in your fights. It doesn't matter whether it's in MMA or boxing, although the potential for big money is obviously way higher in boxing because of different structure and you can have your own sponsors and more freedom, but on the other hand the UFC can give you a push.

A woman boxer can make a lot of money if she becomes a draw. I think Laila Ali earned quite a lot of money back in the day.

Girls like Serrano or Hardy simply didn't make it and didn't capture the interest of the fans. That's just the way fighting is. For example Mayweather vs McGregor is a circus fight but they're making big money because people want to see it because those two guys know how promote themselves. I don't like when fighters think the sport owes them something, it's a ruthless game where everyone is on his own.
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Old 26-Aug-17, 22:34
brooksie brooksie is offline
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Default Re: Boxing vs MMA

<<Girls like Serrano or Hardy simply didn't make it and didn't capture the interest of the fans.>>

I don't know that much about Serrano's career but I wouldn't say that's true in Hardy's case.

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From her Wiki page:

"In 2016, Hardy made major strides for women’s boxing by landing a televised gig on NBCSN against Shelly Vincent.[14] The scheduled ten round fight, took place on August 21 at 9 p.m. at the Ford Amphitheater in Coney Island, New York."

"Shortly after women’s boxing was declared as a featured sport in the 2012 London Olympics, an independent film director named Natasha Verma tackled the subject of the gender wage gap in boxing through her film “Hardy”.[18] She interviewed Hardy on her experiences and talked about how she was changing the face of a generally male dominated sport.[18] The film reached a funding goal of $10,000 online, and the movie went on to be screened at many film festivals. In 2014, another movie, called “The Heat”, was made about Hardy by PBS Indie Films."

"On June 28, 2016, Hardy partnered with Dove on their #MyBeautyMySay campaign."

She seems popular with fans as far as I can tell. I agree, some fighters catch the fans attention and some don't but that doesn't seem like it's been a stumbling block for her. She's a good interview, open and honest and, frankly, more entertaining than most interviews with athletes.

If by "on the rise" you mean a rise in the skill level, I think that's undeniable. Women's boxing has come a long way from the Christie Martin days. Being in the Olympics helps. But in every other way of measuring it, the sport still seems to be struggling. I hope that changes in the future and maybe it just needs one charismatic figure like Conor McGregor to raise up it's profile.
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Old 26-Aug-17, 22:52
al89 al89 is offline
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Default Re: Boxing vs MMA

Quote:
Originally Posted by brooksie [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
<<Girls like Serrano or Hardy simply didn't make it and didn't capture the interest of the fans.>>

I don't know that much about Serrano's career but I wouldn't say that's true in Hardy's case.

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From her Wiki page:

"In 2016, Hardy made major strides for women’s boxing by landing a televised gig on NBCSN against Shelly Vincent.[14] The scheduled ten round fight, took place on August 21 at 9 p.m. at the Ford Amphitheater in Coney Island, New York."

"Shortly after women’s boxing was declared as a featured sport in the 2012 London Olympics, an independent film director named Natasha Verma tackled the subject of the gender wage gap in boxing through her film “Hardy”.[18] She interviewed Hardy on her experiences and talked about how she was changing the face of a generally male dominated sport.[18] The film reached a funding goal of $10,000 online, and the movie went on to be screened at many film festivals. In 2014, another movie, called “The Heat”, was made about Hardy by PBS Indie Films."

"On June 28, 2016, Hardy partnered with Dove on their #MyBeautyMySay campaign."

She seems popular with fans as far as I can tell. I agree, some fighters catch the fans attention and some don't but that doesn't seem like it's been a stumbling block for her. She's a good interview, open and honest and, frankly, more entertaining than most interviews with athletes.

If by "on the rise" you mean a rise in the skill level, I think that's undeniable. Women's boxing has come a long way from the Christie Martin days. Being in the Olympics helps. But in every other way of measuring it, the sport still seems to be struggling. I hope that changes in the future and maybe it just needs one charismatic figure like Conor McGregor to raise up it's profile.
Well if she was/is popular with the boxing fans then it's her fault if she didn't manage to negotiate more money if she thinks she was/is worth more than she was getting. I hope you understand what I mean, I think we mostly agree on this issue anyway, I hope you don't feel like I'm arguing with you, I'm just adding my own thoughts. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see fighters get paid more but they need to realize they're on their own and they have to work on their own to get it.

Boxing/MMA isn't like team sports where you play for a team that has an established brand and they pay you exclusively for what you do on the pitch. In boxing/MMA there are two fields you're playing on. One is in the ring/octagon and the other one is outside of it where you have to promote yourself, talk trash and get the upper hand in negotiations. Some fighters seem to think that if they just beat everyone in front of them they deserve some crazy money because lesser fighters than them who are more marketable get paid more. Sadly, it doesn't work like this. Boxing and MMA fanbases are actually really small, the most money comes from casual fans who don't know a thing about the sport and they don't want to just see good fighters, they want to see personalities and feuds.

At the end of the day everybody is free to do what they want in boxing, they're not tied with a specific promoter like the UFC fighters are tied to the UFC. When Mayweather felt like he was under-promoted he bought out his contract with Bob Arum and the rest is history so to speak. (Female) boxers at least have a chance to really make it big on their own if they get it right, in the UFC they have to be pushed a bit by the company (for example Cyborg is a bit under-promoted, she might have done better in boxing).

I think for women boxing or women combat sport in general a "McGregor" type of figure who would drew a lot of numbers has to be controversial like Ronda Rousey. I think Claressa Shields has that sort of attitude, she seems very arrogant and has that "strong confident woman" vibe like Ronda. I think a woman fighter should make controversial over-confident claims about beating men (like Ronda did) so that she gets both loved and hated by different segments of society. A "good girl" type of character is only popular if she's incredibly pretty (Gina Carano) or has her country behind her (Katie Taylor). I'd love female fighters to talk more trash and display more arrogance because I think that's the best plan for them to get noticed.
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Old 27-Aug-17, 00:15
brooksie brooksie is offline
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Default Re: Boxing vs MMA

Quote:
Originally Posted by al89 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Well if she was/is popular with the boxing fans then it's her fault if she didn't manage to negotiate more money if she thinks she was/is worth more than she was getting. I hope you understand what I mean, I think we mostly agree on this issue anyway, I hope you don't feel like I'm arguing with you, I'm just adding my own thoughts. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see fighters get paid more but they need to realize they're on their own and they have to work on their own to get it.

Boxing/MMA isn't like team sports where you play for a team that has an established brand and they pay you exclusively for what you do on the pitch. In boxing/MMA there are two fields you're playing on. One is in the ring/octagon and the other one is outside of it where you have to promote yourself, talk trash and get the upper hand in negotiations. Some fighters seem to think that if they just beat everyone in front of them they deserve some crazy money because lesser fighters than them who are more marketable get paid more. Sadly, it doesn't work like this. Boxing and MMA fanbases are actually really small, the most money comes from casual fans who don't know a thing about the sport and they don't want to just see good fighters, they want to see personalities and feuds.

At the end of the day everybody is free to do what they want in boxing, they're not tied with a specific promoter like the UFC fighters are tied to the UFC. When Mayweather felt like he was under-promoted he bought out his contract with Bob Arum and the rest is history so to speak. (Female) boxers at least have a chance to really make it big on their own if they get it right, in the UFC they have to be pushed a bit by the company (for example Cyborg is a bit under-promoted, she might have done better in boxing).

I think for women boxing or women combat sport in general a "McGregor" type of figure who would drew a lot of numbers has to be controversial like Ronda Rousey. I think Claressa Shields has that sort of attitude, she seems very arrogant and has that "strong confident woman" vibe like Ronda. I think a woman fighter should make controversial over-confident claims about beating men (like Ronda did) so that she gets both loved and hated by different segments of society. A "good girl" type of character is only popular if she's incredibly pretty (Gina Carano) or has her country behind her (Katie Taylor). I'd love female fighters to talk more trash and display more arrogance because I think that's the best plan for them to get noticed.
Not to worry Al, I get your point. You don't get more money just by wishing for it or complaining to the media that you're not getting it. There are two thoughts that come to mind, one, the fighters usually have managers or agents who negotiate on their behalf as opposed to them sitting around a table and trying to play hardball with a promoter. Secondly, I don't get the impression from Hardy she's that unhappy with the money, more the lack of opportunity to make money in boxing. Also, she was careful to point out that the US is lagging behind, in terms of fighter pay. She was telling Helwani that she wants a fight with Jelena but can't find anyone in the US who will pay the Canadian what she can make in her home country. Big difference between 30 & 7K so Hardy thinks it might be better if she fought her in Canada. The 30-50K range sounds to me about right for a top female boxer today. What do you think?

I don't know if Claressa Shields could be the one who propels female boxing to the next level. Other than watching her fights, I'm not that familiar with her. I'd have to see a few interviews first, guage what her media presence is like etc. But whether it's her or someone else, I think we (us fans of female boxing) are waiting for that galvanizing figure to come along, whoever she may turn out to be. It could be someone like Ronda, someone brash and confident. McGregor definitely has those qualities, but it could also be a more subdued personality if she was charismatic and as attractive as Gina Carano (who seems to be just about everyone's type).

Regarding controversial statements like "beating men" I'm reminded that Ronda did not make statements like that on her own. Those ideas were placed into the media consciousness by the Heckle & Jeckle of MMA, Dana White & Joe Rogan. When asked about them Ronda, with her "nobody has the right to beat you" mindset her mother drilled into her, would answer in a way that would make it seem like it wasn't completely impossible. But she was answering questions from, mostly, dumbass media types who were looking for the most controversial responses they could get, as dumbass media types tend to do. Ronda would entertain the question, assuming the whole time these were rhetorical in nature as she would also stated that no US commission would sanction a mixed bout nor did she think mixed bouts were a good idea due to the social message it would send. Ronda got caught up in a few media "controversies" that were not entirely of her own making. The media sometimes have their own agenda and Ronda's problem, a lot of the time, is that she would give some kind of answer as opposed to instantly shutting down the question. It's a double-edged sword I guess but it's one of the qualities that made her a good interview, speaking as a former media guy.
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Old 25-Sep-17, 13:44
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Default Re: Boxing vs MMA

I watched part of the Christy Martin vs Kathy Collins fight yesterday and was instantly reminded why women's boxing never really caught on as a TV product and the way MMA has.

It's the outfits.

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Old 25-Sep-17, 18:55
al89 al89 is offline
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Default Re: Boxing vs MMA

The outfits in women boxing are often much sexier than the ones in the UFC. Unlike the WMMA fighters in the UFC, Women in boxing have freedom to choose what they will wear. Some of them pick something sexy, some of them don't.

Boxing trunks don't look cool on women but they can wear skirts instead which is hot





Christina Hammer:







Mia St. John always wore some tight shorts:



Claressa Shields recently wore a gold metallic top which is hot especially if you have a fetish for shiny spandex/metallic women clothes:





Russian boxer Natasha Ragosina wore a supergirl outfit:



The thing is most girls who are into fighting sadly don't care about fashion and just don't care much about what they wear. It's the same in WMMA in organizations where it's allowed to have more freedom.

In the UFC the outfits are horrible, every woman has pretty much the same outfit - tight shorts and bra/top with all with the same generic reebok designs and made out of the same material. In fact they're just like men's + bra.
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