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  #11  
Old 03-May-17, 21:56
al89 al89 is offline
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Default Re: Women rulers defeating men rulers

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Originally Posted by matman55 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Golda Meir's Israel ultimately defeated Egypt/Syria/Iraq in the yom kippur war
I'm only into aristocratic women dominating when it comes to wars/political conflicts. I love powerful aristocratic women because they had complete control over their subjects and could do whatever they wanted. Modern democratic politicians don't have even nearly as much power because they have to worry about getting reelected and have to act nice in front of the people and try to be popular. For this reason they also don't develop a "cruel" and dominant character that the aristocratic rulers (male and female) in the past had. A powerful dominant aristocratic lady wouldn't need to worry about what regular people would think of her and could be cruel if she wanted to be, that's why peopled would fear her and be extremely submissive to her and that definitely developed specific character traits.

Also, there was an entire ideology behind them that was supporting their supremacy. Aristocrats were viewed as being of noble blood and special by birth. A woman raised like that and groomed to be a powerful ruler would have a genuine dominant character and would likely feel like she is indeed special and would want to keep people in the state of total submission to her so that they wouldn't even try to question her authority or try to plot something. She wouldn't rule because she was chosen by the people but because she was chosen by God (that's how they viewed it at the time).

Another thing is that modern powerful women try to act too much like men. They dress like men and follow similar code of conduct. Powerful aristocratic ladies were completely feminine in terms of how they dressed and how they acted yet at the same time they were able to keep men firmly under their control and keep them servile to them and made them fear them. So when they were dominating people it was in some ladylike fashion and not like some modern woman trying to act more manly than you.

It's very telling that the way that a modern femdom fetish dominatrix is supposed to act actually mimics the behavior of an aristocratic lady in a lot of ways. That's because aristocratic ladies were the ultimate examples of female domination in history. Even the term mistress comes from the middle ages and while in most contexts it didn't have the explicitely sexual meaning it does today it was a term that was used to show your submissiveness and respect to a noble lady. There were also other forms of femdom-style expressions like Robert Dudley writting to queen Elizabeth I of England "I humbly kiss your foot… by Your Majesty’s most faithful and obedient servant" (just some random typical example of that) and similar forms of verbal worship of noble women by their servants.

A modern powerful female politician can never act like this but if a powerful aristocratic lady was your superior she could really demand complete submission to her from you and assert her female dominance to the fullest. These women could definitely make men (and other women) fear them since they could get them executed or brutally punished in some other way. It would be humbling and exciting at the same time to serve such lady and be completely submissive to her. Modern female political leader could maybe act bossy and arrogant behind close doors and order you around, but some medieval queen could just order you to kiss her feet in front of the entire court watching just to show that she can make you submit to her any time she wants.

Last edited by al89; 03-May-17 at 22:15.
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  #12  
Old 04-May-17, 16:52
al89 al89 is offline
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Default Re: Women rulers defeating men rulers

Here's a great story from British history with a lesbian domination touch about noble lady Sarah Churchill (1660-1744) and her relationship with a 5 year younger Queen Anne of Britain who ruled from 1702 to 1707.

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Sarah Churchill (she was an ancestor of Winston Churchill) was definitely one of the most dominant aristocratic ladies in history. She had a really dominanting personality and ALWAYS wanted the things to be her way, people said that she had an "almost pathological inability to admit the validity of anyone else's point of view". She was a complete winner in life and was also extremely beautiful, intelligent and witty, but at the same time had a darker domineering, conniving and cunning side to her. She came from some relatively irrelevant noble family and ended up being one of the richest persons in Britain.

Sarah entered the royal court in 1673 as a maid of honor of Mary of Modena. Around 1675 she became very close to the young princess Anne (future queen) and the two became very close ever since and became completely devoted to each other. It was through Anne that Sarah asserted her control and influence. Their relationship was very intimate and passionate. The term "lesbian" didn't exist yet but observers noticed the closeness between the two and called it "undue" and "an immoderate passion inappropriate for a princess". In their relationship, Sarah completely asserted herself as the dominant one (despite Anne being the future queen) and it seems like she had complete influence over Anne.

Anne had very strong romantic feelings for Sarah which are revealed in her letters to her (although it has to be pointed out that in those days it was common for women to express affection for each other in ways that might be considered romantic or sexual today). They gave petnames to each other which they used through their entire relationship, even when Anne became the queen, completely ignoring the standard ettiquete and protocol just to show their affection to each other. Those names were: Mrs Freeman (Sarah) and Mrs Morley (Anne).

Queen Mary II noticed that princess Anne was influenced by Sarah Churchill and wanted to force her to dismiss her from her service, but Anne resisted. She then passionately wrote to Sarah "I had rather live in a cottage with you than reign empress of the world without you" and said that if they threat her to banish her from the court for that she would "let them do what they please, nothing shall ever vex me, so I can have the satisfaction of seeing dear Mrs Freeman [her name for Sarah], and I swear I would live on bread and water between four walls with her, without repining, for as long as you continue kind, nothing can ever be a real mortification"

Sarah continued to dominate her and influence her every decision after Anne became the queen and Sarah was put in control of the finances and recieved many other important privileges and benefits. That was when their relationship started to strain though. A lot of it was due to Sarah supporting the whig political party while Anne supported the torries and they argued about it with Sarah trying to force her views and her ideas to Anne as usual. I think the main reason was that when she became the queen Anne simply started to feel like she should make her own decisions now and she was started to get annoyed with Sarah not giving her any respect and always arguing with her. Apparently they had a lot of wild arguments at that time. They had known each other for 3 decades by then and I guess Anne was simply getting tired of being dominated by Sarah for so long and basically being her bitch for her entire adult life and even longer, despite being from a way more powerful family and being a queen. Anne herself had a strong character and was described as "very determined and quite ferocious" by other people. Sarah was also absent from court a lot at the time and Anne replaced her with Abigail Masham, who was a relative of Sarah and who Sarah brought to the court initially. Abigail was more submissive to her and didn't try to challenge her all the time and Anne enjoyed her new intimate friend.

The friendly relationship between Sarah and Anne soon finally came to an end. Sarah shed some tears after she saw that she will never be able to regain Anne's friendship again. She then actually tried to blackmail Anne and accused her of having a lesbian (like I said the term didn't exist back then but she described it like we understand it now, just in more words while trying not to be too vulgar at the same time) relationship with Abigail and privately she threatened to reveal her former passionate letters to her.

Sarah would later write her memoirs in which she wasn't fond of her former close and devoted companion Anne anymore and wrote very mean things about her and tried to present her as dumb and dull. Anne died early but Sarah went on to live a prosperous life where she amassed a lot of wealth for herself and was said to have had a brilliant mind for business. She was also dominant in her relationship with men and had the last word in those relationships as well.

I attached some paintings of her, she was no doubt a beautiful women. It's hard to imagine that this feminine lady was such a dominant mistress who lusted for complete power and control and wanted everyone to be submissive to her. It's exciting to see her elegant beauty knowing that if you were in any sort of relationship with her she would definitely completely dominate you and make you submissive to her one way or another, she was just way too clever, dominating and ambitious. It's a bit like watching a hot athletic lady who is trained in combat sports knowing what she could do to you and fantasizing about it. It was definitely pretty impressive how she managed to make the queen of her country totally submissive and devoted to her.

Last edited by al89; 04-May-17 at 17:11.
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  #13  
Old 05-May-17, 20:46
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Default Re: Women rulers defeating men rulers

Wow, what a woman Sarah Churchill was! This is the firs time I hear about her. Thanks for telling Sarah's story, Al!
Love the fact that she is wearing a key on the first painting.
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  #14  
Old 06-May-17, 00:35
al89 al89 is offline
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Default Re: Women rulers defeating men rulers

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Originally Posted by Zweig [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Wow, what a woman Sarah Churchill was! This is the firs time I hear about her. Thanks for telling Sarah's story, Al!
They made a play about queen Anne recently. Here's a photoshoot to promote the play, Sarah was played Romola Garai here:
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I haven't seen the play myself though but it seems interesting and the reviews are good.

Her story was also potrayed in The First Churchills, a British TV drama series dating from 1968 (it's highly rated, 8.5 on imdb). You have all the parts on YouTube. I haven't watched all of it but it seems to be heavily focused on John Churchill, 1st duke of Marlborough and Sarah's marriage to him which is an interesting story on its own as well. They loved each other and respected each other and Sarah had a great influence on this powerful man as well.

I liked how in the series they depicted how Sarah was able to figure out people on the spot and how clever she was. For example here is a scene where she quickly figured out the details about the secret marriage of Abigail that her and the queen Anne tried to keep hidden away from her and then confronted them about it. The scene starts at 26:10:
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Here at 12:00 is the scene where she last met queen Anne and when the friendship finally ended. This is how it actually happened down to the word according to the accounts at least, with Anne acting "inhuman" and refusing to say anything to Sarah and Sarah breaking down and crying and getting emotional. A very touching and heartbreaking moment:
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I think Sarah definitely had some genuine love for Anne (and Anne was obviously completely passionate about her at some point). I think Sarah really dominated and manipulated her emotionally from the start (probably partly because she was 5 years older and when the two first met Anne was really young) but at the same time she wanted to protect her and keep her from making bad decisions. I think Anne at some point simply couldn't handle the emotional and verbal domination that Sarah had over her and eventually dismissed her and replaced her.

Sarah was in her late 40s at that point that's why she looks a bit older in those scenes, but when she was younger she was really good looking. I attached some more paintings of her.

Since there's a limit at how large files you can upload this is a link to one of those paintings in higher resolution where you can see her face better: [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] In one way she looked sweet and feminine but there also seem to be "darker" dominant aristocratic facial features on her as well (or maybe I just see it this way knowing her story and character). She was no doubt a very beautiful woman though, they said that she kept her beautiful looks as she aged.

Quote:
Love the fact that she is wearing a key on the first painting.
A symbol of her power and dominance. The gold key was the official symbol of her office and of her authority within the Royal household. When she fell out of favor with Anne she had to return it immediately.
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Old 06-May-17, 12:46
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Default Re: Women rulers defeating men rulers

Are you a historian, Al? Some good research there!
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Old 06-May-17, 17:36
al89 al89 is offline
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Default Re: Women rulers defeating men rulers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zweig [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Are you a historian, Al? Some good research there!
Thank you. History has always been a passion of mine. There is a lot you can learn from it, especially from powerful aristocrats and the interaction between them. I never liked fictional stories as much as I liked to read stories about all kinds of famous historic people. The real stories are sometimes much more fascinating than fiction. For example if someone made a fictional story that would resemble the one of Sarah Churchill many people would probably feel it's a bit unrealistic that a woman in that time would be able to climb up that high and have that kind of character. So it's really great to read it knowing that this really happened.
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Old 07-May-17, 02:38
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Default Re: Women rulers defeating men rulers

The Trung Sisters of Vietnam (ad 39-43):

Trung Trac, the elder sister, was the widow of Thi Sach, lord of Chau Dien, in northern Vietnam, who had been assassinated by a Chinese general for plotting with other lords to overthrow the Chinese. Trung Trac thereupon assumed leadership of the movement. In ad 39 she, with her sister Trung Nhi and other members of the aristocracy, marched on Lien Lau, forcing the Chinese commander to flee. Within a year the sisters and their allies held 65 northern citadels. At Me Linh, in the lower Red River delta, the Trung Sisters jointly proclaimed themselves queens of an independent state (of unknown name) extending from southern China to the present site of Hue.
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Old 07-May-17, 08:36
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Default Re: Women rulers defeating men rulers

Empress Elisabeth of Russia vs King Frederick the Great in Seven Years' War

Empress Catherine the Great vs Ottoman Sultans in several wars
Catherine the Great vs Polish rulers in several wars (totally conquested)
Catherine the Great vs Khanate of Crymea (totally conquested)
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Old 07-May-17, 18:05
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Default Re: Women rulers defeating men rulers

On the subject of dominant aristocratic women in literature, Sacher-Masoch's name has to be mentioned. Some of his work has not been translated to this day.

Leopold Sacher-Masoch, the Austrian writer after whom the term masochism was coined, has at least 2 fictional books about dominant Russian queens, and their erotic adventures, always featuring elements of d/s. I've read them in Russian. I'm not sure whether they are available in English, but they are all of course available in German. Most of Masoch's work feature dominant ladies from the upper class, but the ones about Queens are:
- The Last King of Hungary, 1867, about Louis II of Hungary, who was submissive towards his wife
- Female Sultan, 1873, about the court of Elizabeth of Russia
- Russian Court Tales, 1873-74, about the court of the Russian queen, Catherine The Great
- Bloody Wedding in Kyiv: Two Tales of Olha, Kniahynia of Kyivan Rus, 1874-76, about Olga of Kiev, ruler of Kievan Rus (available on kindle [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] and google play books [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register])

I haven't read the following, but they are on a similar subject:
- The Messalinas of Vienna, 1873
- Viennese Court Tales, 1873-77

Attached is a photo of Sacher-Masoch at the feet of Fanny Pistor, his lover and Mistress.
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Old 09-May-17, 14:44
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Default Re: Dominant female aristocrats / women rulers defeating men rulers

Thread was renamed and moved to Femdom Discussion section due to the majority of narratives discussed being related to the general concept of female dominance over male, rather than combat / conflict.
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