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  #141  
Old 21-Oct-18, 15:23
Amazonia Amazonia is offline
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

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Originally Posted by lfourt [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Why? it´s always a lose lose situation for a man. socially he has nothing to gain he gets no recognition about that.
I don't think so. I'm pretty sure that some unknown male tennis player would have a lot to gain if he would be able to play and humiliate an elite female like Sharapova or Serena Williams on court. This isn't fighting where he would get crap for "punching a woman". If Sharapova or Serena would issue out a challenge to let's say 800-1200 ranked men, they would be lining up to play them. It would be a big financial and career opportunity for them.

Look at how often Karsteen Braasch gets mentioned just because he beat those two sisters. He's basically more known for that than for anything else.

Quote:
I think nowdays she should be the embarrassed one . She almost lost to a man ranked 11xx.
I don't know why people bring up his 1100-something ranking as if he was some sort of scrub. Out of thousands of men who play tennis (one of the most popular sports) he managed to break into top 1000 of them (eventually, he was as high as 800-something at some point). Imagine if soccer players were ranked like that. The #1000 soccer player would still be worth millions and would be expected to be a better player than the top female.

Also I looked up some of the results Mayr had previous to that match in 2002.

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Look at some of his highlights.

In June, he beat Melvyn Op Der Heijde 4-6 6-4 7-6 who was ranked #288 at the time.
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In October, he smashed Victor Ioniță 6-3 6-1. Ioniță was a 19 years old prospect at the time and #582 ranked. Ioniță would go on to be ranked #221 just two years later and ultimately got up as high as #187.
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He was also a regional champ in Tyrol. A 23 year old stud male athlete. He was able to beat a top 300 ATP player and dominated a top 600 player who would later become top 200 in few years.

So in December that same year, just months after his big wins and in the prime of his career, he gets to play against a 5'6'' skinny female player Patty Schnyder who is of his same age and ranked #15.

Now you can see why he was expected to win convincingly. Yet the woman won! So this was definitely a huge achievement for her. Even if she lost it definitely wouldn't be embarrassing since the man she played against beat a top 300 man not long ago. Maybe that top 300 man was embarrassed to lose to a man who lost to a woman though.

Mayr's career seemed to have went downhill since that embarrassing loss and he barely played in 2003 and then retired
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Maybe this has something to do with psychological consequences of losing to a woman. As you can see on that German internet forum, people were still giving him the nickname of "I-lost-to-Patty-Schnyder" months after that match. Maybe in some way you're right, it's a huge risk for a man because such defeat can be very embarrassing, but if he won he would be able to brag about beating a top-tier woman player. It's also a shame that people rather mock the man for losing than give the victorious woman credit.

It's interesting that later in that same month (December 2002) Patty Schnyder lost 2-6 4-6 against #44 ranked teenage woman Marie Gaiane Mikaelian (18 years old at the time).
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So Patty was able to beat a #1183 man but got dominated by a #44 ranked teenage girl just weeks later. That means that even that girl would likely be competitive with the man, possibly beat him too.

Last edited by Amazonia; 21-Oct-18 at 15:38.
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  #142  
Old 21-Oct-18, 15:44
lfourt lfourt is offline
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

I don´t think that you can play your best tennis if you are the one who has the social pressure. If you are nervous. If everybody will laugh at you when you lose and that is a big problem of our society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazonia [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Look at how often Karsteen Braasch gets mentioned
But nobody is about "look how good Karsten Braasch is". "This guy is great he just has beaten ..."

That proofs to me just how weak (not techniqual) womens pro tennis is compared to mens tennis at all.
Women who played Grand Slams losing or have a really hard time to guys who are not even close to play at a grand slam. Sorry but this is embarrassing for womens tennis.

I respect your opinion.

But to me this silly "Battle of Sexes" proofs nothing and doesn´t make women sports any better. It just proofs that women can not hang with the guys in most kind of sports.

It´s ok in a friendly club environment. But doesn´t make sense in a plublic "Battle of sexes" becaus it´s always a mismatch.
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  #143  
Old 21-Oct-18, 15:48
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

I'm wondering if this was a handicap match where the man had to defend the doubles court while the woman only had to defend the singles?
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  #144  
Old 21-Oct-18, 17:10
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

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Originally Posted by stymie [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
I'm wondering if this was a handicap match where the man had to defend the doubles court while the woman only had to defend the singles?
It was a real match. No one mentions any handicap in the reports after the match or on the forums where people who saw it live talked about it.

From the information I gathered this is what happened. On the St. Anton tournament they used to do a battle of the sexes match every year. Those were real matches. A year before that Nikolay Davydenko (ranked #79 at the time) played against Barbara Schett who was ranked at #20. Davydenko won 6-3 6-3.

Then I guess for the next year they wanted to make it more competitive so they matched the #15 ranked woman Patty Schnyder with their regional champ who was also #1184 ranked male player.

Here is a thread from a tennis forum for that event all the way back from 2002:
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Before the match, the man was the big favorite:

Quote:
Im pretty sure Patrick will give her 2 or three games cause this is an exhebition normally he should double bagel her for sure
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Quote:
That boy should beat Patty pretty easily. He'll probably let her win some games, to amuse the crowd
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Then after the match you can see somebody posting a news report:

Quote:
Patty Schnyder - Patrik Mayr
7:6 (7), 7:5
Damit hatte niemand gerechnet: Patty Schnyder siegte heute beim "Duell der Geschlechter" im Rahmen der tele.ring Tennis Trophy in St. Anton am Arlberg gegen den Tiroler Landesmeister Patrik Mayr mit 7:6 (6), 7:5. Die WTA-Nummer 15, die sich davor keine Chance ausgerechnet hatte, warf Spielwitz in die Waagschale und siegte gegen den auf ATP-Rang 1183 gereihten regierenden Tiroler Landesmeister, der trotz Aufschlägen von bis zu 204 km/h den Kürzeren zog.
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Quick translation:

Patty Schnyder - Patrik Mayr
7:6 (7), 7:5
Nobody expected this: Patty Schnyder beat Tyrolean regional champion Patrick Mayr with 7:6 (6), 7:5 during the "battle of the sexes" on the tele.ring Tennis Trophy in St. Anton in Arlberg. The WTA #15, who gave herself no chance prior to the match, used her skills to to beat the #1183 ATP reigning Tyrolean regional champion who lost despite hitting serves up to 204 km/h.


Then you have this report from a man who saw it live:

Quote:
Then Patty Schnyder played her match against Andi Mayr, the Tyrolean Champion, no. 1183 on the current ATP – ranking. He already won one Challenger tournament in Italy. Mayr wore a T – Shirt with “A question of honour” printed on it. Patty got broken in the first game, but immeditalely broke back. Mayr was serving with about 200 km/h and Patty had difficulties returning. The first set was tied up, Mayr served great – as well as Patty. As soon as the ball was in the game, Patty had better chances to win the point. She did some great passing shots. Patty won the first set tie breaker 8-6. In the second set, Patty hit some great winners and she broke Alex Mayr to lead 6-5 in the second, finally finishing the match 7-5. Afterwards Patty got a T – Shirt with “Who’s the man? Patty’s the man” printed on it.
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It looks like Patty really rubbed it in and gave the losing man a humiliating "present".

Also check the comments I already quoted in my first post about this match, particularly this one:

Quote:
Schnyder vs Mayr wasnt faked. The croud really laughed at Mayr after the match cause he really was upset. Before the match everyone said that Patty will have no chance but she proved them wrong.
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I also saw many other comments about it on different tennis forums, everyone who saw it confirms that it was real and that they were both trying. Apparently his serves were making Patty some trouble but his groundstrokes and the rest of the game was average and he looked nervous playing and losing against a woman in front of a crowd.

Here's a longer article after the match, here are the parts about the match:

Quote:
Patty holt Prestige-Erfolg für die Tennis-Damen

[...]

Patty Schnyder - Patrik Mayr
7:6 (7), 7:5
Damit hatte niemand gerechnet: Patty Schnyder siegte heute beim "Duell der Geschlechter" im Rahmen der tele.ring Tennis Trophy in St. Anton am Arlberg gegen den Tiroler Landesmeister Patrik Mayr mit 7:6 (6), 7:5. Die WTA-Nummer 15, die sich davor keine Chance ausgerechnet hatte, warf Spielwitz in die Waagschale und siegte gegen den auf ATP-Rang 1183 gereihten regierenden Tiroler Landesmeister, der trotz Aufschlägen von bis zu 204 km/h den Kürzeren zog.

Schnyder: "Bin selbst überrascht"
Schnyder war selbst überrascht von ihrem Sieg: "Es war irrsinnig schwierig. Er serviert so enorm schnell, ich habe kaum einen Return sauber getroffen." Von der Grundlinie taktierte die Schweizerin aber perfekt und nützte die deutliche Nervosität ihres 23-jährigen Gegners, der immerhin im Vorjahr ein Turnier beim italienischen Satellite gewonnen und sich heuer dreimal für ein ATP-Future-Achtelfinale qualifiziert hatte.

Mayr: "Zu nervös"
Der Tiroler Landesmeister gab nach dem Match zu, sehr nervös gewesen zu sein - "zu nervös. Ich bin es doch nicht gewöhnt, dass auf der anderen Seite ein so hübsches Mädchen in einem so kurzen Rock steht." Trotz der Niederlage hatte aber auch Mayr seinen Spaß: "Die Stimmung, die vielen Zuschauer - einfach super." Ob die Niederlage Auswirkungen auf seine junge Profi-Karriere hat? Mayr: "Mein Trainer hat mir vor dem Match gesagt, wenn ich verliere, muss ich zu Fuß nach Hause gehen."

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Translation:

Patty achieved prestigious success for the Ladies' tennis

Patty Schnyder - Patrik Mayr
7:6 (7), 7:5

Nobody expected this: Patty Schnyder beat the Tyrolean regional champion Patrick Mayr with 7:6 (6), 7:5 during the "battle of the sexes" on the tele.ring Tennis Trophy in St. Anton in Arlberg. The WTA #15, who gave herself no chance prior to the match, used her skills to to beat the #1183 ATP reigning Tyrolean regional champion who lost despite hitting serves up to 204 km/h.

Schnyder: "I surprised myself"

Schnyder herself was surprised after her win: "It was insanely difficult. He served so fast, I have hardly hit a clean return." From the baseline, however, the Swiss maneuvered perfectly and took advantage of the noticeable nervousness of her 23-year-old opponent, who, after all, won a tournament at the Italian Satellite last year and had this year qualified three times for ATP-Future 1/16 finals.

Mayr: "Too nervous"

The Tyrolean national champion admitted after the match that he had been very nervous - "too nervous, I'm not used to seeing such a pretty girl in such a short skirt on the other side." Despite the defeat, Mayr too had his fun: "The mood, the many spectators - just great." Did the defeat affect his young professional career? Mayr: "My coach told me before the match that if I lose, I will have to go home on foot."


As you can see, she beat him fair and square in a real competitive match.
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  #145  
Old 22-Oct-18, 12:23
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazonia [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

Also I looked up some of the results Mayr had previous to that match in 2002.

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Look at some of his highlights.

In June, he beat Melvyn Op Der Heijde 4-6 6-4 7-6 who was ranked #288 at the time.
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In October, he smashed Victor Ioniță 6-3 6-1. Ioniță was a 19 years old prospect at the time and #582 ranked. Ioniță would go on to be ranked #221 just two years later and ultimately got up as high as #187.
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He was also a regional champ in Tyrol. A 23 year old stud male athlete. He was able to beat a top 300 ATP player and dominated a top 600 player who would later become top 200 in few years.
2002 was certainly Mayr's best year in Tennis. He was in his prime and won a lot more matches than he lost that year. He ascended to a career high of #867 earlier in the year beating, as you report, some much higher ranked men.

That said, rankings - especially at a first glance - are a very, very poor indicator of a player's overall skill and ability to win a given match. It maybe the case that they are a top 50 player ranked outside the top 200 because they have missed a few months due to injury or recovery from surgery. Goran Ivanisevic, for example, was #125 when he won Wimbledon in 2001. It may be that they are a rapidly ascending young player whose ranking does not yet reflect their skill. Earlier in the thread I mentioned Thanasi Kokkinakis, who Maria Sharapova beat in a practice set. He was ranked in the 700s at the time, but a week prior had taken Fernando Verdasco - world no. 24 at the time - to a tie-break. Kokkinakis would go on to a career high of #69 within 2 years.

While it's a given that elite men are playing at a higher level than elite women, many are still selling the women far too short. That "point" where elite women can begin to beat non-elite men can arrive sooner than many of us think.
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  #146  
Old 22-Oct-18, 16:47
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

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Originally Posted by jiminy [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
While it's a given that elite men are playing at a higher level than elite women, many are still selling the women far too short. That "point" where elite women can begin to beat non-elite men can arrive sooner than many of us think.
I agree it could happen once in a while that an elite women would beat a "higher" ranked men even if nobody would expect it and not just in tennis, but if you would make it competive, if you would match them up on real official competition when it comes to earn money and ATP points i´m sure the top level women would almost disappear, they propably would win some and lose most.

Karan Rastogi has beaten Sharapova 6:2 when he was 18 and she the current Wimbeldon Champion. His highest ranking was 284 in 2011 many years after he beat her. He was talented but never went on to be a great player. He was 591 when he went pro.

Now imagine how many non elite men could win a female grand slam tourney.

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  #147  
Old 22-Oct-18, 18:40
Amazonia Amazonia is offline
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

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Originally Posted by lfourt [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
I agree it could happen once in a while that an elite women would beat a "higher" ranked men even if nobody would expect it and not just in tennis, but if you would make it competive, if you would match them up on real official competition when it comes to earn money and ATP points i´m sure the top level women would almost disappear, they propably would win some and lose most.
But it's still embarrassing for a male pro (someone who takes his sport seriously) to lose to a woman. The male ATP player who lost to the female player was disgraced and humiliated in the eyes of many. People expect the men to beat women no matter what, unless the man is out of shape and barely trains the sport at all. So it looks like the public underestimates female players if they think it's so embarrassing to lose to them.
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  #148  
Old 22-Oct-18, 19:10
lfourt lfourt is offline
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

Pretty embarrassing for a female wimbeldon champion as well.
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  #149  
Old 22-Oct-18, 19:50
Amazonia Amazonia is offline
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

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Originally Posted by lfourt [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Pretty embarrassing for a female wimbeldon champion as well.
In the article you posted it says that Sharapova played that boy when they were both 14.

EDIT: Sorry, I made a mistake. I read it again and I see now that they played again when they were both 18.

The article also implies that Sharapova beat all the other boys her age:

The coach was impressed when Karan told her he won the set 6-2 against Sharapova. Till then she hadn't lost to any boy in her age group.

Also, it was a practice match. If it was a big spectacle in front of thousands of people and some low-level male pro would have to play Sharapova, he could crumble under the pressure. The sports are a lot about mental strength and being able to perform at best under pressure and in front of huge crowds. This is where elite female athletes are more experienced than these low level male pros.

Last edited by Amazonia; 22-Oct-18 at 20:02.
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  #150  
Old 22-Oct-18, 20:15
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

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Originally Posted by Amazonia [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
In the article you posted it says that Sharapova played that boy when they were both 14. She wasn't in her prime yet and not a Wimbledon champion.
No? You need to read again. He played her twice.

"Karan is talented and proud. He just won't lose to a girl, even if she is the reigning women's Wimbledon champion, and tennis' latest glamour queen."

"Normally guys would line-up to catch a glimpse of the Russian beauty, but the time she returned to the Nick Bolliteiri Academy of Tennis in Florida after being crowned Wimbledon champ, even male players kept away from her. Maria Sharapova across the net, with a tennis racquet in her hand, was no fun."

"But Karan played the champion. And beat her 6-2, 6-2."
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