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Old 30-Apr-17, 23:41
al89 al89 is offline
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Female Supremacy Dominant female aristocrats / women rulers defeating men rulers

EDIT: This was initially a reply in the thread about men losing to women in chess or other "intellectual" contests.

It's definitely sexy and for a male who prides himself in his intellectual ability or thinks that he is very intelligent and smart that would be even more humiliating for him than losing a physical contest against a woman.

I always liked to fantasize about scenarios where a great male general would end up beng outsmarted and defeated on the battlefield by some young woman leader and would have to surrender to her or maybe even end up being captured by the victorious troops of the woman leader and brought in front of her on his knees like her slave.

Imagine a scenario in a medieval setting where a male king of a country who has a reputation of being a good leader and smart general would end up fighting a weaker kingdom ruled by a young good looking woman. He severely underestimates her and thinks that she is just some dumb blonde and tries to take advantage of her perceived weaknesses and starts invading her kingdom. He has success initially but then his woman rival manages to actually outsmart him at some battles and inflicts him significant casualties. He then makes some bad decisions and she takes advantage of them as well. The male king becomes frustrated and angry and is provoked into some aggressive attacks that just end up in more casualties for his troops and even his victories are just pyrrhic victories. The woman ruler then takes the initiative and starts an offensive and takes some land from him and manages to win some decisive victories and the war is clearly going to her favor despite her kingdom being much smaller and weaker.

The male ruler is furious at how he has been outsmarted and dominated by this woman and feels completely humiliated. He has no choice but to admit his defeat and ask for peace and has to sign a peace treaty with some humiliating terms for him in front of the triumphant lady ruler of the rival kingdom with her taunting him a bit and acting smug and dominant in front of her defeated rival.

Anyone else who'd like a story like this?

Last edited by al89; 02-May-17 at 10:01.
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Old 01-May-17, 08:17
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Default Re: Losing at chess is sexy

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Originally Posted by al89 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Imagine a scenario in a medieval setting where a male king of a country who has a reputation of being a good leader and smart general would end up fighting a weaker kingdom ruled by a young good looking woman. He severely underestimates her and thinks that she is just some dumb blonde and tries to take advantage of her perceived weaknesses and starts invading her kingdom. He has success initially but then his woman rival manages to actually outsmart him at some battles and inflicts him significant casualties. He then makes some bad decisions and she takes advantage of them as well. The male king becomes frustrated and angry and is provoked into some aggressive attacks that just end up in more casualties for his troops and even his victories are just pyrrhic victories. The woman ruler then takes the initiative and starts an offensive and takes some land from him and manages to win some decisive victories and the war is clearly going to her favor despite her kingdom being much smaller and weaker.

The male ruler is furious at how he has been outsmarted and dominated by this woman and feels completely humiliated. He has no choice but to admit his defeat and ask for peace and has to sign a peace treaty with some humiliating terms for him in front of the triumphant lady ruler of the rival kingdom with her taunting him a bit and acting smug and dominant in front of her defeated rival.
Sounds great for a story indeed!

We are going a bit off-topic. Anyways, luckily, history has stories like this. Say, the story of Cyrus the Great's death. The most popular version is that he lost a battle to massagetean army, which was led by a female ruler, Tomyris. Cyrus was captured, and Tomyris ordered his beheading. Here's the wiki excerpt:
"Tomyris sent a message to Cyrus denouncing his treachery, and with all her forces, challenged him to a second battle. In the fight that ensued, the Massagetae got the upper hand, and the Persians were defeated with high casualties. According to Herodotus, Cyrus was killed and Tomyris had his corpse beheaded and then crucified,[9] and shoved his head into a wineskin filled with human blood. She was reportedly quoted as saying, "I warned you that I would quench your thirst for blood, and so I shall"

There's quite a few interesting artworks on this subject:
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File Type: jpg tomyris.jpg (518.1 KB, 64 views)
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Old 01-May-17, 11:21
al89 al89 is offline
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Default Re: Losing at chess is sexy

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Originally Posted by Zweig [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Sounds great for a story indeed!

We are going a bit off-topic. Anyways, luckily, history has stories like this. Say, the story of Cyrus the Great's death. The most popular version is that he lost a battle to massagetean army, which was led by a female ruler, Tomyris. Cyrus was captured, and Tomyris ordered his beheading. Here's the wiki excerpt:
"Tomyris sent a message to Cyrus denouncing his treachery, and with all her forces, challenged him to a second battle. In the fight that ensued, the Massagetae got the upper hand, and the Persians were defeated with high casualties. According to Herodotus, Cyrus was killed and Tomyris had his corpse beheaded and then crucified,[9] and shoved his head into a wineskin filled with human blood. She was reportedly quoted as saying, "I warned you that I would quench your thirst for blood, and so I shall"

There's quite a few interesting artworks on this subject:
I know the story but thanks for posting it anyway. As for the artwork are you familiar with the "Power of Women" topos in the renaissance art?

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The "Power of Women" (Weibermacht in German) is a medieval and Renaissance artistic and literary topos, showing "heroic or wise men dominated by women". There are a lot of paintings of women triumphing over men from that time and Tomyris and her dominant victory was featured on many of them.

You can find the most known paintings from this genre on the Wikipedia page.

It just shows you how this fetish and fascination with women defeating and dominating men has long been present in Western culture in all kinds of forms. Also from that time (late middle ages / early modern age) you have some books that actually argue for the superiority of females like Triunfo de las donas (1445) (The Triumph of Women) by Juan Rodríguez de la Cámara where he presents 40 arguments for the superiority of women to men and Declamation on the Nobility and Preeminence of the Female Sex (1529) by Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa which he wrote to impress his patron the aristocratic lady Archduchess Margaret of Austria which could be interpreted as a sign of his submission to her.

It also shows you that this fetish has never been obscure but is actually really old and popular, it was just always presented in a more subtle fashion but this is mostly because things like modern porn simply didn't exist. It's also interesting that this is a common theme in Western culture but it doesn't seem as popular in most other cultures like Islam or big Asian cultures, at least not that I know of. In the West there is a tradition of depicting warrior women in armor, amazons, women dominating men and defeating them in battles or outsmarting them, praising dominant women leaders, things like courtly love which was basically a rather extreme form of submission to women in some way, warrior women figures as impersonifications of European nations (like goddess Germania for Germany) etc. You don't see nearly as much of that in other major cultures. Even things like persecution of witchcraft - while mean and unfair to women it was in some way just another manifestation of our Western obsession with female domination and shows you that there was a genuine belief that women can be cruel, dominant and dangerous to men. You can see a lot of both fear and adoration of dominant women in Western culture. You can't deny that this has always been a secret (and in a lot of ways unique) obsession of our culture.

I think people have this ridiculous view that everything before the modern age and secularism was dominated by what they think is some "religious fundamentalism" and that women were seen as inferior by everbody which is just ridiculous. There were a lot of cases in the West when "we" (the men) had to worship powerful women rulers and bow down to them or were defeated by them and there were many cases when we praised defeats and submission to women.

In some weird way modern feminism actually ruined a lot of that since it presented women as historic victims and made a lot of them insecure and took a bit of that powerful cruel aristocratic lady and warrior woman image from the Western woman through history. They promote this view of history that men in the West were always oppressing women which kind of pushes aside and ignores all the cases of when women defeated "us" (in the fashion of the dominant Tomyris) and made us submissive to them. Also in modern times the kind of women that are praised aren't the ones who are exactly dominating males but rather just trying to be equal to them while in the case of "Power of Women" art in the renaissance we have some of the finest artists of the era praising cruelty and domination of women over men which in some ways shows that there was a significant element of society that secretly admired it and was fascinated by it. I think one of the reasons why feminism and women rights movement has been successful here while much of the world still treats women like trash is because there is a stronger tradition of submitting to the wishes of women here in the West and sometimes we just let them have their way even if we don't agree with it.

There are a lot of interesting things you can in find in history regarding this fetish, much more than most people would probably imagine there is actually.

Last edited by al89; 01-May-17 at 11:38.
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Old 01-May-17, 21:35
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Default Re: Losing at chess is sexy

You're right to emphasize that we can find many events in history which could be related to this fetish. I was captivated when i was younger by Greek mythology (with a lot of tales involving goddesses/women of power), and the early medieval period has always been a source of interest...some women of these times have fascinated me, especially Brunhilda, Queen of Austrasia (a part of actual France). She ruled a kingdom during warfare and a family feud : she was so feared by her enemies she suffered one of the most cruelest fate of those times (dragged to death by horses).

I think however we can find examples of women rulers in Arabic or Asian regions. During the seventh century, Wu Zetian was an empress of China and even created her own dynasty. There is also a lot of tales with women warriors in these parts of the world. I would say it is more buried and hidden than in western countries, but it is mainly a reflection of the ambivalences of society.
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Old 01-May-17, 22:29
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Default Re: Losing at chess is sexy

This is my favorite painting of Tomyris (look at attachment). She looks so beautiful, feminine and ladylike while at the same time enjoying her complete victory over her powerful male rival in a brutal display of her total triumph over him (Cyrus the Great whom she defeated was one of the greatest rulers in the history of antiquity, it's pretty impressive that this woman handed him a complete defeat and took his life). By holding his severed head in some way she is showing how small he was to her and that she squashed him like some bug.

Like I said it's very telling that her victory fascinated so many great artists of the renaissance as there was no other reason to depict her other than because of her display of female domination since her battle wasn't particularly relevant to European history.

Also the way that the artists depicted her as a contemporary European aristocratic lady rather than as some oriental woman (which she actually was) in some way reveals a secret desire or fantasy to translate her example of female domination to their society and their time, making it look as if a Christian European woman could also behave like that and deliver such cruel punishment on men as well.

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You're right to emphasize that we can find many events in history which could be related to this fetish. I was captivated when i was younger by Greek mythology (with a lot of tales involving goddesses/women of power), and the early medieval period has always been a source of interest...some women of these times have fascinated me, especially Brunhilda, Queen of Austrasia (a part of actual France). She ruled a kingdom during warfare and a family feud : she was so feared by her enemies she suffered one of the most cruelest fate of those times (dragged to death by horses).
I liked Greek mythology as a child as well, I loved women defeating men for as long as I remember and I remember I loved the illustrations of Amazons and also Athena beating Ares and things like that. So basically my desires were passed on to me or at least strenghtened by Greek (Western) mythology which is just another proof that this fetish is part of Western tradition in some way.

Quote:
I think however we can find examples of women rulers in Arabic or Asian regions. During the seventh century, Wu Zetian was an empress of China and even created her own dynasty. There is also a lot of tales with women warriors in these parts of the world. I would say it is more buried and hidden than in western countries, but it is mainly a reflection of the ambivalences of society.
I think the difference is that in the West we made more of a fetish out of women dominating men because we included that a lot more into our mythology, art and culture. I could be wrong though, I haven't given it much thought yet. I think one of the reasons might be in Catholicism which put a lot of women like Virgin Mary and women saints on pedestal, also there were a lot of influential women in the Church in the middle ages like Hildegard of Bingen or Catherine of Siena.

People have this simplified one sided view that Catholicism/Christianity oppressed women while its relationship with women is much more complex. In the days of Roman empire Christianity was actually associated with women a lot since there were more religious women than men at the time and also in the modern days there were/are more women going to churches than men and Christianity did bring a lot of rights to women compared to what they had in pagan Rome. Also the pagan Roman empire didn't have female rulers while medieval Christianity didn't mind women rulling over men as queens, duchesses, princesses etc. Not only that if you look at the vocabulary related to those female rulers it was common that men would really stress their submission to their female leaders and were supposed to give them utmost respect. Isabella the Catholic was one of the most revered leaders in Christian European history and she's another example of a pious religious woman who was very respected by her male subjects.

For this reason I think people are wrong when they view Christian middle ages and early modern era as a time when men completely dominated when there were so many powerful women figures who kept their men subjects in line and forced them to submit to them.

One of my favorite female rulers is Olga of Kiev who was the first Russian ruler to convert to Christianity and was also pious and religious and is now venerated as a saint. She was a very dominant lady who completely obliterated the Drevlians, a tribe that killed her husband. She inflicted a series of devastating defeats on them, outsmarted them many times and slowly destroyed them to the point where they begged her for mercy but she ignored them and decided to eradicate them, enjoying her revenge and her complete triumph. If you want more details read on her Wiki page about "Drevlian uprising": [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

Here's a story of her life in more details and with some nice illustrations:
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Here's another nice picture of her:[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

I love how they always depict these cruel noble female rulers as feminine, it's how I like to imagine them as well, as elegant and feminine women but at the same time able to keep their men subjects completely submissive to them. Basically as some real life dominatrices.

EDIT: Maybe you should move the posts from post #34 on to a new thread "Women rulers defeating men rulers" or something like that so that we don't derail the thread about chess completely?

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Old 02-May-17, 09:35
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Default Re: Losing at chess is sexy

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EDIT: Maybe you should move the posts from post #34 on to a new thread "Women rulers defeating men rulers" or something like that so that we don't derail the thread about chess completely?
Good idea.
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Old 02-May-17, 12:16
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Default Re: Women rulers defeating men rulers

Another great example of female domination by a woman ruler was what Elisabeth of Russia who was empress of Russia from 1741 to 1762 did, a very powerful and successful leader who was also beautiful and attractive. She organized a lot of lavish balls at her court where she made all the powerful male nobles dress as women (they had to wear extremely feminine ball gowns and dresses) while she and other women were dressed as men:

Elizabeth was renowned throughout and beyond Russia for the balls she held and her fierce commitment to the arts, particularly music, theater, and architecture. It is reported that Elizabeth threw two balls a week. One would be a large event with an average of 800 guests in attendance, most of whom were the nation’s leading merchants, members of the lower nobility, and guards stationed in and around the city of the event. The other ball was a much smaller affair reserved for Elizabeth’s closest friends as well as members of the highest echelons of nobility.[45] These smaller gatherings began as masked balls but evolved into the famous Metamorphoses balls by 1744.[46] At these Metamorphoses balls, guests were expected to dress as the opposite sex, with Elizabeth often dressing up as Cossack or carpenter in honor of her father.[46] The costumes not permitted at the event were those of pilgrims and harlequins, which the Empress considered profane and indecent respectively.[47] Most members of court thoroughly disliked these balls since most looked ridiculous but Elizabeth adored them. As Catherine the Great’s advisor Potemkin posited, this adoration was due to the fact that she was “the only woman who looked truly fine, and completely a man… As she was tall and powerful, male attire suited her.”

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It's interesting because forced crossdressing is a theme in female domination and I'm sure she mainly did it to assert her dominance over her powerful noble male subjects in this way. I read that in Victorian Britain mothers would force their young sons to wear feminine dresses if they misbehaved as a punishment and also to make them more docile and quiet as the theory is that a male dressed in extremely feminine clothing naturally starts acting more submissive and feminine as women clothes were designed to make women look pretty, pasive, submissive and subservient, so they should have at least slight psychological effect on people wearing them. This practice is actually referred to as petticoat punishment and is present in femdom:
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In this perspective it must have been quite humiliating for grown men (who also happened to be powerful noblemen) to be "punished" in such a way by their woman ruler in front of their wives and all sources and accounts of these stories tell us that they indeed didn't like it one bit. I think it was really an ingenious method by Elisabeth to assert her female dominance over them and take them down a notch. While they had to be dressed like women on the other hand she was dressed like a man cossack warrior and while all accounts of her tell us that she was a beautiful woman they also say that she was tall and strong, partly because she was always physically active and loved riding, hunting, sledging, skating, and gardening. I think that the interaction between her and her male subjects when she was dressed like a cossack warrior while they were dressed in ridiculously feminine gowns (which really restrict your movement and basically force you to act feminine and submissive) must have really confirmed her domination over them and made them at least subconsciously even more submissive to her, especially since she held those balls very often and it basically became a routine on her court. I wouldn't be surprised if she (being a naturally strong woman) would be able to physically dominate a lot of those noble men and wrestle them down as well, especially when they were dressed like that (hell, maybe she even did, we would probably never know about it ). In any way it's fascinating that she was able to force something that is essentialy part of femdom fetish to powerful male nobles and keep them firmly in check, affirming their complete submission and loyalty to her.

She was a very dominant ruler and is actually popular in Russia due to her anti-Prussian policies and her success in wars. In the Seven Years' War (1756-1763) she was the main force behind the anti-Prussian coalition. She personally disliked the great Prussian ruler Frederick the Great and really wanted to bring him on his knees and destroy him. She was very successful in her wars against him and handed him arguably his worst defeat at the Battle of Kunersdors in 1759. Frederick was really devastated by this defeat and wrote that it was "a cruel reverse! I shall not survive it. I think everything is lost. Adieu pour jamais" and then in the beginning of 1760 he also wrote: "I'm at the end of my resources, the continuance of this war means for me utter ruin" and he was sure that he was facing a certain defeat. Elisabeth's troops inflicted some further defeats on him and even briefly occupied Berlin. The only thing that saved him was Elisabeth's sudden death in 1762 which is referred to as the "Miracle of the House of Brandenburg", since there was surely really no other way for him to stop her from defeating him completely. Elisabeth's successor (her nephew) didn't continue the anti-Prussian policies and spared him. It's fascinating that just like Cyrus the Great who got defeated and killed by the female ruler Tomyris, Frederick the Great was also one of the greatest leaders of his time but got soundly defeated by a lesser known (yet very capable and dominant) female ruler as well.

Elisabeth was also very successful in her war against Sweden at the start of her reign and managed to gain very good diplomatic treaties under which Sweden had to cede a lot of land to Russia. She was also very cruel to native people of Siberia and expelled some tribes from their native lands or even tried to eradicate their culture.

It's so sexy how she was so triumphant her entire live and always dominated men and defeated them while she never lost herself. I think that must have really made her feel so dominant and powerful. It must have made her really arrogant and developed feelings of complete superiority over other people in her. She was a complete winner all her live and nobody was ever able to humble her. Besides being so powerful she was also extremely beautiful. Here's an interesting anecdote that also reveals her domineering and narcissistic character:

Elizabeth’s vanity and the attention paid to her personal appearance also had indelible ramifications on Court life. Elizabeth as a young woman had been incredibly attractive and, in turn, she desired to be the most attractive amongst any company at all times. In order to ensure this was the case Elizabeth passed various decrees outlining what was acceptable of her courtiers in regards to appearance in relation to the Empress. These edicts included a law against wearing the same hairstyle, dress, or accessory as the Empress. One woman, Natalya Lopukhina, accidentally wore the same item as the Empress and was lashed across the face for her offense.
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Old 02-May-17, 21:32
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Default Re: Women rulers defeating men rulers

Nice depiction of those lavish balls. Here a few words about the same events from the memoirs of Catherine the Great, who ruled Russia shortly after Elizabeth during more than thirty years.

"In the year 1744, in Moscow, the Empress had enjoyed making all the men appear at the court masquerades in women’s clothing, all the women in men’s clothing, without masks on their faces. It was a day of perfect metamorphosis at court. The men wore large hoop skirts with women’s coats and were coiffed like the ladies were every day at court, and the women were in men’s outfits like those worn on court days. The men did not much like these days of metamorphosis.Most were in the worst possible humor because they felt that they were hideous in their costumes.....No women looked truly and perfectly good in men’s clothing except the Empress herself; since she was very tall and had a somewhat powerful build, men’s clothes suited her marvelously. She had more beautiful legs than I have ever seen on any man and admirably proportioned feet. She danced perfectly and had a particular grace in all that she did, whether dressed as a man or a woman. One would have liked to gaze only at her, and one turned away only with regret because no other object could replace her".
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Old 02-May-17, 23:12
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Default Re: Women rulers defeating men rulers

I absolutely love the story about Elisabeth and her balls.

If you look at the female fashion from the 18th century for the aristocratic women those dresses really were made to stress femininity and restricted movement, they were made to make women look passive and subservient. I attached some pictures. It was really a clever way for Elisabeth to make men submissive to her by making them wear these clothes. It would be very hard for those men to act defiant in front of her, argue with her and try to act like they were some hard men when she was making them dress like pretty little princesses every week. I think wearing such dresses really had a psychological effect on them.

On the other hand these ultra-feminine clothes look very sexy on dominant female rulers because they remind us that while these rulers were so powerful and dominated men they still maintained their feminine grace and acted like ladies.

Personally I'd absolutely love to be a powerful Russian nobleman at the time and dress like this for Elisabeth's balls and act according to the wishes of my lady master as a sign of my submission to her. I like forced crossdressing in relation to female domination and I especially like soft feminine materials like satin and silk and would probably be excited to wear something like this, especially given the context where I would see it as just another form of female domination of my ruler over me.

I also like the comment about her having great legs and being a good dancer. She was probably very athletic for a lady at that time and was a strong woman.

Catherine the Great is another great Russian female ruler but for some reason I was always more intrigued by Elisabeth. If you add Olga of Kiev that I already mentioned in this thread Russia really has quite a history of dominant females in charge.
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Old 03-May-17, 07:32
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Default Re: Women rulers defeating men rulers

Golda Meir's Israel ultimately defeated Egypt/Syria/Iraq in the yom kippur war
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small women defeating BIG MEN gandalfi Wrestling & Fighting Discussion 9 29-Sep-13 09:22
Women enjoy defeating men vassa Wrestling & Fighting Videos 0 18-Aug-12 20:10


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