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Old 01-Feb-13, 10:44
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Default Women have come a long way in sports but will they ever catch up ?

I remember watching women's cricket for the 1st time as a young child in 1997 during the world cup here. It was totally boring with players lacking not only in strength and athleticism but also in skills. In 2013 as the World cup has once again being held here I am amazed to see the how the level has increased, the matches are far more interesting and entertaining. A team from the 1997 competition wont be able to compete with the ladies now. They are as skillfull as the male and their matches look like how 14-16 year old boys matches are, skilled players but not the strongest.

So to my question considering the rate women are improving will it be possible say within 50 more years for them to catch up to male standards in sports. If not all will there be some elite athletes/teams who will be able to compete at the top level with male sportspersons. For e.g. a women playing NBA or a mixed football (soccer)/cricket team. Females already have won mixed gender competition in ultra marathon and there are some studies which says that it is possible for women to beat men in endurance sports like long distance running and swimming. In my mind there are arguments both pro and contra so I would ask considering a long time horizon how would the battle of the sexes in sports will play out, Will women ever catch up ?
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Old 01-Feb-13, 16:39
garcon55 garcon55 is offline
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Default Re: Women have come a long way in sports but will they ever catch up ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheehan [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
I remember watching women's cricket for the 1st time as a young child in 1997 during the world cup here. It was totally boring with players lacking not only in strength and athleticism but also in skills. In 2013 as the World cup has once again being held here I am amazed to see the how the level has increased, the matches are far more interesting and entertaining. A team from the 1997 competition wont be able to compete with the ladies now. They are as skillfull as the male and their matches look like how 14-16 year old boys matches are, skilled players but not the strongest.

So to my question considering the rate women are improving will it be possible say within 50 more years for them to catch up to male standards in sports. If not all will there be some elite athletes/teams who will be able to compete at the top level with male sportspersons. For e.g. a women playing NBA or a mixed football (soccer)/cricket team. Females already have won mixed gender competition in ultra marathon and there are some studies which says that it is possible for women to beat men in endurance sports like long distance running and swimming. In my mind there are arguments both pro and contra so I would ask considering a long time horizon how would the battle of the sexes in sports will play out, Will women ever catch up ?
you are too much into fantasy.

there are physiological reasons why women can not compete with men in all the sports you mention.
Ultra marathon is very special as it does not use much the maximum oxygen volume the competitor can integrate. the effort is long but not violent. But still men win most of them.
People winning these competitions are often very old, around 40/50 years old. This is not the case for all the other sports.

For all the other sports women cannot compete.

marathon: men have much more testosteron. this hormone helps transporting and assimilating oxygen in blood. Therefore men have more stamina, even in long distance running like marathon.

soccer: you probably have no idea of the gap existing between men and women. This sport requires speed, long term stamina, short term stamina, physical power, reflexes. men are much better in all these fields.
15 years old boys of french national team are regularly defeating french national women soccer team, which reached quarter final in olympic games. they won 4-0 the last game. Mixed soccer teams just donīt make sense.

Basket ball: do you know what is the average male player height/weight?
same question for female players? How can you imagine such a thing?
Putting 15/16 years old boys against NBA players is even more plausible...

swimming/ athletism etc...: in general male junior athletes outperform female athletes in all these disciplines. How can you imagine women catching back men
do you know that for example heptathlon male athletes which are competing in 7 very different disciplines are jumping higher than female specialists of high jump?
swimming is not an endurence sport.


Women will never catch up men because women will never produce as much testosteron as them.

If they catch them up it means they will have the same hormonal system than men:
therefore they will be and will look like men.

Last edited by garcon55; 01-Feb-13 at 16:45.
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Old 01-Feb-13, 16:57
garcon55 garcon55 is offline
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Default Re: Women have come a long way in sports but will they ever catch up ?

small example:
100m swimming.

women world record: B.Steffen 52''07
Boys junior 16 years old France record: AGNEL Yannick 51''08


Track and field:
high jump

female world record: 2,09m KOSTADINOVA Stefka (BUL)
Boy junior world record: 2,37m SMITH Steve (GBR)


10 000m

female world record: 29'31''78 WANG Junxia (CHN)
Boy junior world record: 26'41"75 WANJIRU Samuel (KEN)



i could do that for all disciplines.
therefore, your question is as stupid as:
"Will 16 years old boys catch back olympic champions?"

Last edited by garcon55; 01-Feb-13 at 17:57.
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Old 02-Feb-13, 09:35
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Default Re: Women have come a long way in sports but will they ever catch up ?

I know all the arguments that you have made and I myself have both pro and contra arguments in my mind about something like this happening. But you are missing out on two very significant aspects of my question one it is all sports and second the long time horizon.

There was an u-16 boys team from India who defeated the US national Womens team (the No. 1 ranked team female team) 4-0 during a tour in 2011. But at the same time there are reports of an u-17 German women team winning the u-14 boys league in 2010 and Haitian women's team defeating the u-17 US and Dominican Republic teams.

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Also I the u-17 New Zealand female team placed 3rd or 4th in an U-15 competition there before the junior womens world cup.

There was a club in Germany in the 90's I believe which signed a women player. I do not remember the division the team was playing and dont think the experiment was too successful as there were no further report that I saw.

Also there is the case of Cuban women Judo team beating the Ecuador team a news report which has already been debated in this forum.

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Also I was surprised to see the weightlifting result of the recent London olympics where the top women lifters would not finish last but generally between 10-12th position. That is something when you consider a world level competition.

You can compare the results here

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My point is a hundred years ago if you would have told anyone women will participate in these sports they would have laughed their heads off. The founder of the modern olympics Pierre, the Baron de Coubertin was himself against female participation.

The attitude has changed from turn of the last century, from women cant play to 40's-50's where the prevalent belief was that no woman can beat no man in any sports to now where we are saying the top man will beat the top women. These sayings were probably true at their time and what we say is true for our time. But increasingly these Myths have been demolished since the last century when women started making their appearance in the sports arena. Who knows what next 50 years holds for us.

There are such numerous instances for e.g. if you would have asked some one in the 70's would girls be able to beat men in wrestling they would have told you girls cant wrestle. But today we have proof to the contrary. The time has still not come to match the top women with the top men but may be in future the top women may successfully compete with elite men in some sports. Not necessarily be the No. 1 but be able to hold her own against the No. 1.

I know and support your testosterone argument but all sports does not require high dosages of Testosterone take the example of shooting where female events were introduced in 1984 and on 1992 a woman became champion in Skeet shooting a gender neutral event. This event triggered banning of mixed shooting events from the olympics so this feat is never repeated. The 1st person to get a perfect 10 in gymnastics was a women. Recently Sharapova mentioned see won in practice against two young ATP ranked Aussie players

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Lastly do you know which events can become mixed gender in olympics (not anytime soon, discussions on Mixed teams were experimented with in the Youth Olympic games) Fencing, yes the old masculine sword fighting
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Old 02-Feb-13, 10:51
garcon55 garcon55 is offline
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Default Re: Women have come a long way in sports but will they ever catch up ?

THere are many problems in your message. it is mainly based on urban legends, and you bring them as strong arguments.

the ecuador vs cuban team is a legend, as discussed in the other thread. there was no proof such a contest ever happened.

the female player in a german men soccer team is again a story i ve never heard about, and i live in germany. you don t even know the division. and you bring it as an example. Moreover the UEFA is forbidding such mixing of genders officially.

your maria sharapova storie is a big lie. again
she palyed against austrian boys, not ATP RANKED male players.
do you understand what you are saying??
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your other story about women haiti team beating under 17 us boys is obviously an other fake.How is it ever possible??
haiti women team is very low ranked (between 53 and 109) and women us team (a top world team) got crushed by U17 us boys 8-2!!!!
it seems they also often loose against U15 boys!!
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Heather Mitts herself said the boys were too fast.


i don t know what to say about your other story on a girl german 17 team playing in a 14 yo boy league. your link sends me to a junior girl league.
nothing is said about them playing against boys.


again i found nothing about your story on NZ under 17 female team. sorry, i am scared it is also a lie...


I don t see why you feel forced to bring so much lies or legends to prove your point.

everything is fake in your message except the olympic lifter. but this is a weight category sport, and it seems trials make the sports random.
for example the best 56 kg man lifts more than the best 69 kg woman.

please check your sources and bring them. You try to bring a debate where there is not by inventing some stories.
You previous post was probably to most ignominious post i have ever seen.
almost everything is wrong!

Last edited by garcon55; 02-Feb-13 at 10:58.
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Old 02-Feb-13, 13:18
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Default Re: Women have come a long way in sports but will they ever catch up ?

Garcon English may not be your first language, its not mine, but saying anyone is a liar is not appreciated in any language. We are here for civilised discussion and should follow the protocol established by the board. But inspite of your remarks I will show you some links for the stories, I mentioned these stories from other discussion boards and on your insistence have looked up some and posting these links for your satisfaction


The 1st one is the wiki pages of the two guys sharapova played which contains their rankings

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A video of one of the match played by Turbine Potsdam girls against SG bromin boys, the third placed team on the league. As for the link I can see a under 17 team on top of the listing of a under 14 league. But my German does not progress beyond "guten Morgen" & "mein Name ist Sheehan" So you are better suited to read the page and see whats in there.

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Links for Haitian women playing and beating Dominican republic boys team. i made a mistake here I wrote US but it is AS boys team.

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As for the German female footballer signing a for a club story, this was something I read in the 90's but as I was too young to preserve the particular story and as I dont have an eidetic memory unlike Sheldon Cooper I cant tell you the exact name and publication date. But to buttress my argument here is a report which mentions Mexican female player signing for a second division team which made FIFA ban mixed gender teams

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Also here is a story which mentions some other tries in same context
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Some Ice hockey links

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and some players who played with men

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I am sure you can easily find out more searching the web.

The Cuban women story has not been proved false anywhere. I will not be surprised if Cuban women who are one of the top ranked female Judo nation spanks Ecuador a not so formidable men's team. What do You think will happen if Top chinese female weightlifters participate in a national competition of a lower ranked weightlifting nation, the olympic results are infront of you.

At the risk of being repetitive please understand my statement, I am not saying that at 'PRESENT' the top females can compete with the top men in all sports (In some sports they can e.g. shooting, gymnastics, ultramarathon equestrian, probably archery too and if you go by discussion on some forums fencing may be etc.) but I am asking what can or will happen in the future, with the tremendous growth in female sports in recent times. And also consider these in many countries female sports are not yet accepted, some of the powerhouses in some sports like Iran in wrestling does not allow women to compete (Most Islamic countries have reservation about female sports due to religious reasons). What we are seeing is the best of a limited population who have the freedom of playing but what can or will happen when the restrictions get lifted slowly and equal participation happens from these countries too.

Whether you accept or not female sports have improved by leaps and bounds in recent times. One small trivia a legend in swimming Johnny Weismuller would not even qualify for female swimming at Olympics now.
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Old 02-Feb-13, 14:14
garcon55 garcon55 is offline
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Default Re: Women have come a long way in sports but will they ever catch up ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheehan [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Garcon English may not be your first language, its not mine, but saying anyone is a liar is not appreciated in any language. We are here for civilised discussion and should follow the protocol established by the board. But inspite of your remarks I will show you some links for the stories, I mentioned these stories from other discussion boards and on your insistence have looked up some and posting these links for your satisfaction


The 1st one is the wiki pages of the two guys sharapova played which contains their rankings

[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
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A video of one of the match played by Turbine Potsdam girls against SG bromin boys, the third placed team on the league. As for the link I can see a under 17 team on top of the listing of a under 14 league. But my German does not progress beyond "guten Morgen" & "mein Name ist Sheehan" So you are better suited to read the page and see whats in there.

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Links for Haitian women playing and beating Dominican republic boys team. i made a mistake here I wrote US but it is AS boys team.

[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] (scroll down to find the story)

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As for the German female footballer signing a for a club story, this was something I read in the 90's but as I was too young to preserve the particular story and as I dont have an eidetic memory unlike Sheldon Cooper I cant tell you the exact name and publication date. But to buttress my argument here is a report which mentions Mexican female player signing for a second division team which made FIFA ban mixed gender teams

[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

Also here is a story which mentions some other tries in same context
[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

Some Ice hockey links

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and some players who played with men

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I am sure you can easily find out more searching the web.

The Cuban women story has not been proved false anywhere. I will not be surprised if Cuban women who are one of the top ranked female Judo nation spanks Ecuador a not so formidable men's team. What do You think will happen if Top chinese female weightlifters participate in a national competition of a lower ranked weightlifting nation, the olympic results are infront of you.

At the risk of being repetitive please understand my statement, I am not saying that at 'PRESENT' the top females can compete with the top men in all sports (In some sports they can e.g. shooting, gymnastics, ultramarathon equestrian, probably archery too and if you go by discussion on some forums fencing may be etc.) but I am asking what can or will happen in the future, with the tremendous growth in female sports in recent times. And also consider these in many countries female sports are not yet accepted, some of the powerhouses in some sports like Iran in wrestling does not allow women to compete (Most Islamic countries have reservation about female sports due to religious reasons). What we are seeing is the best of a limited population who have the freedom of playing but what can or will happen when the restrictions get lifted slowly and equal participation happens from these countries too.

Whether you accept or not female sports have improved by leaps and bounds in recent times. One small trivia a legend in swimming Johnny Weismuller would not even qualify for female swimming at Olympics now.
sorry for the word liar, but you checked by yourself that your stories were not true. and there was so much mistakes in what you wrote!!

-sharapova: THEY ARE 16 years old player, not ATP ranked player. By the way it looked they gave her a lot of trouble.

-haiti female team story: They played against a local U15 teams. this is very far from the US17 team, no?

-judo: sorry you need to prove that something exists to demonstrate it exists. god doesnt exist because i can t demonstrate it doesn t exist, no?
this story is a legend launched by the coach of the cuban team.

- i knew they tried to make a mexican girl play in second division,and fifa forbid it. That is why i don t believe in your german girl story. And all this doesn t mean women can be competitive in these divisions. They are obviously not. If heather Mitts is outclassed by a 17 years old boy i don t see how she could handle herself against professional adults.

-the other article about hope solo claiming she could play in a men team.
people who know football know this is ridiculous. thanks to the links you and i give, we can say there is a huge gap between men and women football. There is even a huge gap between women and boys football as a U15 team can defeat the female US team.
This gap is even bigger for goalkeepers which is the weakest point of female soccer.



- hockey: These women trying to play in men teams were not successful experiments.
On the 2 field players you mention here, one played only 7 minutes in french league, not because she was good, but because the female team of this club disappeared and they wanted her to play.
The Canadian girl, who is probably the best female player of history, played one year in Swedish 3rd division, and her contract has not been extended.


- comparing an athlete of more than 100 years and a present athlete performance is probably the most silly thing i have ever heard. As the training technics, dietetic, medecines are radically different.
and sorry i have to correct you again (and again and again) but with his 57 '' 4/10 performance in the 100 m, John Weissmuller wouldnīt be qualified for the semi finals, but he would be faster than 25% of the female swimmers in the series.

the point i want to come to, is that you try to open a debate about weather women can catch up men in sports,
whereas it is already obvious they can not catch up boys in sports.

that s why i find your question really surprising and quite inapropriate.

Last edited by garcon55; 02-Feb-13 at 14:37.
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Old 02-Feb-13, 15:19
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Default Re: Women have come a long way in sports but will they ever catch up ?

Here are the ATP ranking for both the players.

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Saville is 19 and Thanasi 16 is quiet a good player I saw him play and he is quiet a good player.

About the Judo thing, the original link has expired so neither I can convince you nor can you convince me about whether it is true or not.

The fact that a team has signed up these females are an indication that they are some good at least at a level where they can play otherwise they would not have been there.

Johnny Weismueller world record was 58.6 for 100 m freestyle here are the qualifying times for last 4 olympics. Looks like he would not qualify even for Sydney games held in 2000. That point was more made in jest, something I read in a sports magazine.

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My point is that female sports is hamstrung by a lot of socio economic factors still and women have been in sports for a very short time and they still have surpassed previously held male records. The female sports growth curve is steep but it is cause females sports are at their early stage while male performances are plateauing out (offcourse there are exception) so my point is at what point will female performance plateau out, will that point be anywhere equal to male levels, thats why the 50 years horizon.
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Old 02-Feb-13, 16:11
garcon55 garcon55 is offline
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Default Re: Women have come a long way in sports but will they ever catch up ?

Saville and thanasi played only one game in the ATP tours and both lost, they are ranked between 300 and 700 th in world ranking.

and sharapova didn t win real matches against them.
it seems they just played for exibition, she won a very close set against the 16 years old player, and they didn t finish the set with thanasi as it was too long.


Johnny Weismueller record is 57"4
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but comparing his performance with modern performances doesn t make sense. i hope you understand this guy was not professional, he was not training, eating, drinking resting or using high tech suits like modern athletes do. At this time athletes didn t believe in fitness and work out. the drugs they unfortunately take are not the same...

The fact that a team has signed up these females are an indication of nothing. This is sometimes a commercial or a media operation, this is sometimes for curiosity or an attempt to be modern and open minded. The truth is that, at some point their level was not satisfying and they had to stop, after the trial time was over.


that is true that in many sports, women are at an earlier stage of their progression so their curve is steeper than men curve.
in more popular sports their curve follow the men progression curve:
in swimming, they are saturating like men, but at a much lower performance:

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do you still think women can catch up men?


to your surprise, in many running disciplines, the women curve is saturating more strongly than the men curve (attached)

[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] (bolts two last records are not taken into account in the fit as they apear out of the data, and would influence the curve to a very steep slope.)

then, can women catch up men?


Please try to look at things more accurately than just believing a fake article, or popular beliefs built by political correctness.
i try myself to be accurate to convince you that things are not as nice as we would like.

it would be cool if women could catch men up, but i am sorry, it is just not the case. Nature is unfair.
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Old 02-Feb-13, 19:24
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Default Re: Women have come a long way in sports but will they ever catch up ?

i think garcon55's graphs are unfortunately very telling - women caught up rapidly but that progress has flattened out sharply. i dont think they will catch men in athletic pursuits, the data is pretty clear and much more convincing than isolated incidents, even when those can be presented without bias in either direction (which seems pretty hard lol )
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