Go Back   Male vs Female | The Mixed Wrestling Forum > Mixed Wrestling & Fighting > Women's MMA


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-Aug-17, 00:03
KillerCrushes's Avatar
KillerCrushes KillerCrushes is offline
Producer
Points: 12,129, Level: 47 Points: 12,129, Level: 47 Points: 12,129, Level: 47
Activity: 32.5% Activity: 32.5% Activity: 32.5%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Gender: Male
Location: Northern California
Posts: 677
Thanks: 301
Thanked 791 Times in 319 Posts
Default 145s conversation

I know Cyborg already has her own thread here, but I'm a rebel. I think she's honestly doing her best to clean up her image: training hard to stay in shape, taking interviews and saying all the right things, and being an all-around good ambassador for her sport whenever the opportunity presents itself.

But 2 things will never go her way:

1) there is a segment of the sport that will never forgive the positive test

2) she'll never be a looker

At this point in her career, I'm not convinced she can develop a more polished style. I believe she's tough as nails and hits hard as hell, but I don't think she's invincible. I'd be very surprised if she went on a 2-1/2 year run with multiple defenses and no losses.

MAJOR credit to Evinger for taking this fight on short notice. She was in poor condition, but I think she earned a lot of respect by taking Cyborg into the 3rd round.

Outside of Cyborg and Evinger (and maybe Holm?), I don't know who the 145s are, but you really need 10-12 of them at about the same level to make things interesting. For now, I'm not buying any of their fights based on what we have seen from that division so far, because Holm isn't going to give us any trash talk at all.

How far are we away from having something to talk about here?
__________________
[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-Aug-17, 02:55
Rated G Rated G is offline
Senior Member
Points: 3,148, Level: 23 Points: 3,148, Level: 23 Points: 3,148, Level: 23
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 229
Thanks: 50
Thanked 153 Times in 73 Posts
Default Re: 145s conversation

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerCrushes [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

How far are we away from having something to talk about here?
Massive pasta loading from JJ?

Wasn't it 2 positive tests? But she "proved" one was accidental?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-Aug-17, 06:58
Zweig's Avatar
Zweig Zweig is online now
Administrator
Points: 467,482, Level: 100 Points: 467,482, Level: 100 Points: 467,482, Level: 100
Activity: 100.0% Activity: 100.0% Activity: 100.0%
Last Achievements
Award-Showcase
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Gender: Male
Location: Czech Republic
Posts: 9,425
Thanks: 9,622
Thanked 53,908 Times in 5,724 Posts
Default Re: 145s conversation

Cyborg has never looked impressive to me. She is like Wanderlei, wins her fights via bullrushing and swinging hard, and you can only go so far with that, until the fight game passes you by. The only reason this even works for her is because she is faster and stronger than her opponents. Even Gina Carano was more technical than Cyborg. She needs to improve to stay on top for longer. There are better fighters than Cyborg in women's MMA at the moment - I give Nunes a good chance against her, and even Shevchenko can possibly outpoint Cyborg and win.

As to 145 division in general, there's just not enough talented women of that size competing in MMA to make it interesting at this point. They opened 145 because they wanted Cyborg as a champion, since she is a good draw, and to spice things up with Ronda back when Ronda was on top. I'm interested to see how it develops.
__________________
[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] | [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Zweig For This Useful Post:
  #4  
Old 02-Aug-17, 21:09
KillerCrushes's Avatar
KillerCrushes KillerCrushes is offline
Producer
Points: 12,129, Level: 47 Points: 12,129, Level: 47 Points: 12,129, Level: 47
Activity: 32.5% Activity: 32.5% Activity: 32.5%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Gender: Male
Location: Northern California
Posts: 677
Thanks: 301
Thanked 791 Times in 319 Posts
Default Re: 145s conversation

From @[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]'s quote of some blogger:

Quote:
Then Joe Rogan starts with this "if you build it they will come" nonsense about Welterweights. I have said for years there are no credible 145lb fighters. Take note of the word "credible" because most 145lb fighters, including the ones in Bellator, stink.
Based on what fans have seen so far, it is tough to argue against this. Maybe the next level up from 135 should be 140 or 142 instead of 145. Based on the size of women in the general population, this reality is counter-intuitive, but while there are probably 50 135-lb'ers who'd be able to generate some PPV sales, there might be 2 or 3 at 145 lbs. I'm just making those numbers up, but that seems like the ratio and truth be told, I cannot name a dozen 145-lb'ers that I'd pay to see.

Quote:
The exception to that is Meghan Anderson but it's too soon for her. Cyborg's next title defense will probably be against Holly Holm who is ill equipped for Cyborg.
Holly has had bad losses, but she is capable of frustrating Cyborg. Holly is a very strong and powerful athlete, but visually, Cyborg seems a lot more powerful and more durable. In my opinion, Holly would have to pack on a lot of muscle beforehand. So, in my view, we have to be at least 8-9 months away from this possible fight happening.

Quote:
Cat Zingano and Ediane Gomes have also expressed interest. Of course all of them are Bantamweights. That's what we will see in the UFC. This is not a new problem going back to 2012 when then Strikeforce owner Scott Coker asked Cyborg to drop to 135 because she ran out of 145lb opponents.
I think fans are ok with 135 being the "glamour" division. Maybe there is some interest in what a slimmed down Cyborg could do at that weight, but I'm not sure her body is built to fight at that small a weight. One has to imagine that Cyborg vs Rousey at 135 would still have bigtime PPV potential, but realistically, I don't think that ship will ever return to harbor. We can still wish.

Quote:
Meanwhile I expect Cyborg to do an angle at WWE SummerSlam with Becky Lynch. They have been Tweeting each other for the last couple of weeks.
Taking a page from the NBA playbook, "twitter beef" *does* move the meter in terms of drawing eyeballs and opinions to the sport, so maybe this crop of bigger women can use that as their ticket. I'm just talking at this point. lol

Can Kayla Harrison learn to box and get down to 145?
__________________
[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-Aug-17, 00:17
brooksie brooksie is offline
Banned
Points: 48,946, Level: 97 Points: 48,946, Level: 97 Points: 48,946, Level: 97
Activity: 67.6% Activity: 67.6% Activity: 67.6%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,478
Thanks: 411
Thanked 7,915 Times in 770 Posts
Default Re: 145s conversation

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerCrushes [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
From @[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]'s quote of some blogger:

Quote:
Then Joe Rogan starts with this "if you build it they will come" nonsense about Welterweights. I have said for years there are no credible 145lb fighters. Take note of the word "credible" because most 145lb fighters, including the ones in Bellator, stink.
This is a bit confusing and not just because the original quote was on another thread. He said "Welterweight" which, if I'm not getting the weight classes mixed up, is 175. Yet the conversation seems to be about the Featherweight division. As I said, I'm confused.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-Aug-17, 04:21
stymie's Avatar
stymie stymie is offline
Senior Member
Points: 60,852, Level: 100 Points: 60,852, Level: 100 Points: 60,852, Level: 100
Activity: 72.5% Activity: 72.5% Activity: 72.5%
Last Achievements
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,463
Thanks: 6,466
Thanked 9,187 Times in 2,628 Posts
Default Re: 145s conversation

Quote:
Originally Posted by brooksie [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
This is a bit confusing and not just because the original quote was on another thread. He said "Welterweight" which, if I'm not getting the weight classes mixed up, is 175. Yet the conversation seems to be about the Featherweight division. As I said, I'm confused.
He probably confused it with boxing's name for 145 lb.'ers
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to stymie For This Useful Post:
  #7  
Old 08-Aug-17, 13:17
al89 al89 is offline
Senior Member
Points: 5,775, Level: 32 Points: 5,775, Level: 32 Points: 5,775, Level: 32
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Gender: Male
Posts: 454
Thanks: 462
Thanked 1,057 Times in 288 Posts
Default Re: 145s conversation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zweig [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Cyborg has never looked impressive to me. She is like Wanderlei, wins her fights via bullrushing and swinging hard, and you can only go so far with that, until the fight game passes you by. The only reason this even works for her is because she is faster and stronger than her opponents. Even Gina Carano was more technical than Cyborg. She needs to improve to stay on top for longer. There are better fighters than Cyborg in women's MMA at the moment - I give Nunes a good chance against her, and even Shevchenko can possibly outpoint Cyborg and win.

As to 145 division in general, there's just not enough talented women of that size competing in MMA to make it interesting at this point. They opened 145 because they wanted Cyborg as a champion, since she is a good draw, and to spice things up with Ronda back when Ronda was on top. I'm interested to see how it develops.
Cyborg has been very technical lately, especially in her last fight.

She is actually the most technically well rounded female fighter in the UFC.

I understand your position but I think that's mostly due to stereotypes associated with Cyborg which appeared when she was still raw technically and also during her rivalry with Ronda she was portrayed as some sort of "monster" and a bully. Also, she just demolished most of the girls she fought and hasn't really had time to showcase her technical progress.

In the recent fight though I was very impressed with what I saw from her technique-wise and I'd like to share it with you, maybe it will change your mind...

Cyborg didn't bullrush against Evinger at all but used both defensive counterpunching and effective aggression, using feints and great footwork. She has a variety of punches and goes to the body and throws solid kicks as well, using a lot of leg kicks to slow down the opponent. Her head movement has improved as well and she rolls with the punches more, trying some boxing-style defensive techniques more. Another thing that I liked is that her lead straight right hand has been on point, you rarely see MMA fighters throw those.

Some examples of what I'm talking about from her last fight:
[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

3:54 boxing head movement, baiting opponent in and countering with a stiff jab
6:40-7:00 again nice head movement and evading everything Evinger was throwing at her until Cyborg landed a massive right hand of her own

7:40-7:50 Philly shell defense from "Sugar" Cris Cyborg, that's some sweet science right here. How many MMA fighters (male and female) have this technique in their arsenal? I only noticed Conor McGregor employing shoulder roll from time to time.

Or for example the sequence from 4:10 until 5:10 is typical for this fight. Cyborg controlling the range and counterpunching and then switching to attack when her opponent starts getting afraid to throw anything due to being countered all the time. Also notice her offensive footwork, she doesn't follow her opponent around but thinks one or two moves ahead and closes the opponent's escape routes by moving laterally instead of circling (that's why Tonya has nowhere to go when Cyborg pressures her), that's boxing 101 but sadly it happens to still be a mystery to many MMA fighters, maybe DC should take lessons from Cyborg because he was following Jon Jones around like a fool in their fight.

Cyborg has improved greatly and now looks more like a boxer-puncher with some solid muay thai thrown in.

She has better technical striking than most male fighters in the UFC.

I don't know why people don't appreciate her technical skills but it could be because most MMA fans DKSAB.

She is improving faster than any other WMMA fighter and has always been willing to test herself against the best women combat athletes from other sports at their game. She had a muay thai fight with Jorina Baars and recently sparred with female two time Olympic women boxing gold medalist Claressa Shields, and both of those women are bigger than Cyborg and hit hard as hell. Claressa is also faster than her. Even though she didn't win against those two she held her own against them and proved that she has a solid chin. She also competed and won in BJJ tournaments and trained with Olympic female freestyle wrestlers. She is working to improve every aspect of her game and hasn't even reached her prime yet.

Compared to Cyborg Nunes is a joke and would get systematically butchered by Cyborg if she played it safe or destroyed by counterpunches if she stormed forward, it wouldn't even be competitive. That's assuming she would show up which she wouldn't.

I love Valentina but she is way too small to keep Cyborg away from her.

Cyborg is the GOAT of WMMA IMO. The only one who comes close P4P is Valentina Shevchenko but not H2H due to size difference.

Added after 8 minutes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by brooksie [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
This is a bit confusing and not just because the original quote was on another thread. He said "Welterweight" which, if I'm not getting the weight classes mixed up, is 175. Yet the conversation seems to be about the Featherweight division. As I said, I'm confused.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stymie [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
He probably confused it with boxing's name for 145 lb.'ers
Boxing:
126 - featherweight
147 - welterweight
175 - light heavyweight
MMA:
147 - featherweight
170 - welterweight

The boxing names are more established and make more sense IMO. I mean let's face it, 145 lbs fighters in MMA walk around at over 160 pounds and are usually around 5 foot 8 tall, they pretty much represent the average size of the human male. The name featherweight assumes that we're dealing with small fighters. And MMA "welterweights" are big strong men who sometimes weigh over 200 pounds inbetween fights.

Last edited by al89; 08-Aug-17 at 13:48.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-Aug-17, 13:27
Zweig's Avatar
Zweig Zweig is online now
Administrator
Points: 467,482, Level: 100 Points: 467,482, Level: 100 Points: 467,482, Level: 100
Activity: 100.0% Activity: 100.0% Activity: 100.0%
Last Achievements
Award-Showcase
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Gender: Male
Location: Czech Republic
Posts: 9,425
Thanks: 9,622
Thanked 53,908 Times in 5,724 Posts
Default Re: 145s conversation

Quote:
Originally Posted by al89 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
I don't know why people don't appreciate her technical skills but it could be because most MMA fans DKSAB.
What a great way to hold a conversation, isn't it? "People who don't agree with me don't know shit". These arguments come and go everyday, mate, relax. Not being condescending, however, helps make friends.
__________________
[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] | [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-Aug-17, 13:44
al89 al89 is offline
Senior Member
Points: 5,775, Level: 32 Points: 5,775, Level: 32 Points: 5,775, Level: 32
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Gender: Male
Posts: 454
Thanks: 462
Thanked 1,057 Times in 288 Posts
Default Re: 145s conversation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zweig [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
What a great way to hold a conversation, isn't it? "People who don't agree with me don't know shit". These arguments come and go everyday, mate, relax. Not being condescending, however, helps make friends.
I didn't refer to people who don't agree with me and I didn't mean anyone specific. It's a common expression used by many people and saying that most people don't know shit about boxing is simply a factual statement that has been proven right numerous times, especially recently when masses of people are getting fooled into buying the MayMac mismatch. There aren't many people who understand boxing and follow it closely. Cyborg has been doing a lot of boxing training lately and I pointed out her improvement which I think has gone unnoticed by many.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-Aug-17, 13:47
Zweig's Avatar
Zweig Zweig is online now
Administrator
Points: 467,482, Level: 100 Points: 467,482, Level: 100 Points: 467,482, Level: 100
Activity: 100.0% Activity: 100.0% Activity: 100.0%
Last Achievements
Award-Showcase
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Gender: Male
Location: Czech Republic
Posts: 9,425
Thanks: 9,622
Thanked 53,908 Times in 5,724 Posts
Default Re: 145s conversation

You remind me of someone.
__________________
[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] | [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Conversation starter; women who I'd break the ice with... noface Wrestling & Fighting Pictures 47 30-Jun-18 16:09
Conversation after she let you out noface Wrestling & Fighting Discussion 5 10-May-17 02:12


All times are GMT. The time now is 23:14.


Powered by vBulletin® - Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.