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View Poll Results: Who will win?
Nunes 5 27.78%
Shevchenko 13 72.22%
Voters: 18. You may not vote on this poll

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  #51  
Old 10-Sep-17, 19:53
brooksie brooksie is offline
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Default Re: UFC 215 - Nunes vs Shevchenko

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Originally Posted by Ricoswrap [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
I'm a way bigger fan of Valentina than Amanda but I do have to say that I think she is becoming a bit of a winer. Though she is probably my least favorite female fighter Amanda IS the champion and you have to beat the champion. For Valentina to imply that she clearly one the fight is way off line. As someone else stated this fight was a coin flip and a coin flip will almost always go to the champion. This isn't the first time she has reacted like this.
First time I'm aware of. You have other examples? This is from MMAFighting's Alex Lee: "Shevchenko is not known for engaging in trash talk, but given how close the fight was and her past history with Nunes (the defending women’s bantamweight champion outpointed Shevchenko in a three-round encounter at UFC 196), it’s clear that her emotions were less restrained than usual."

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Originally Posted by SilverGiant [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
They just danced around each other the first four rounds. Neither really engaged until the last round. It was a lame fight.
If that's all you saw in those four rounds, you missed a lot. Still, the contention that Shevchenko didn't do enough to seal the victory is valid, especially considering the difference in the way MMA is scored as opposed to boxing or kickboxing. Here's an interesting perspective from Mike Chiapatta:

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Added after 1 17 minutes:

This is interesting. These cards are all over the map:

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Last edited by brooksie; 10-Sep-17 at 21:01.
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  #52  
Old 10-Sep-17, 20:33
brooksie brooksie is offline
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Default Re: UFC 215 - Nunes vs Shevchenko

Some more stats to ponder:

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Bottom line for me is that, while I still think Shevchenko won the fight, there's not a strong enough case for continuing the debate. My take on is it that Shevchenko was cautious, waiting for Nunes' gas tank to run out, as it has in the past. By the time she realized (probably in the fifth round) that wasn't going to happen, it was too late to take a more aggressive approach.

Nunes is out for six months for sinus surgery. When she returns who knows what the division will look like. It will no doubt lose a few women to the new 125 division, possibly including Shevchenko herself. I think the thing that might keep her from making the move is the hope for another shot at Nunes but the consensus among MMA pundits and fans seems to be that the UFC probably won't have much interest in a third fight between them.
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  #53  
Old 10-Sep-17, 20:52
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Default Re: UFC 215 - Nunes vs Shevchenko

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Originally Posted by brooksie [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Nunes is out for six months for sinus surgery. When she returns who knows what the division will look like. It will no doubt lose a few women to the new 125 division, possibly including Shevchenko herself. I think the thing that might keep her from making the move is the hope for another shot at Nunes but the consensus among MMA pundits and fans seems to be that the UFC probably won't have much interest in a third fight between them.
Third fight won't sell on PPV. It could be a feature on FOX, but only with a good co-main. Nunes and Holly would sell, but Holly can make more fighting Cyborg. Valentina may have to fight Ketlen, the girl that beat McMann. Looks like eventually there'll be a trilogy, because there's nothing else. Not good for the 135's right now.
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  #54  
Old 10-Sep-17, 21:02
al89 al89 is offline
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Default Re: UFC 215 - Nunes vs Shevchenko

I had Valentina clearly winning rounds 2, 3, 4 and 5.

I can't really see how you can give the round 5 to Amanda. Valentina totally dominated the striking exchanges in that round. The takedown only happened after 3 out of 5 minutes of the round (during which Valentina dominated) were already over and it was just stalling from Amanda. Valentina got up quickly and then it was another takedown where Amanda again did nothing and it was actually Valentina who was punching from the bottom.

It's ridiculous that people score these takedowns that don't do anything in MMA. In fact, I think they revised the scoring recently and under the new scoring rules takedowns shouldn't be valued as much. I'd understand if Amanda scored a takedown and held Valentina down for the majority of the round, but once again we need to consider that there were already entire 3 minutes of Valentina dominating that round before the takedown happened. Amanda literally did zero damage in that round and didn't attempt submissions either. And if you include the fact that Valentina got up from the first takedown there was only like a minute and a half of Amanda "controlling" Valentina, and even during that control she got punched repeatedly while holding Valentina down and not really answering back with anything herself.

So with that in mind there were 3 minutes of Valentina in control and 1 and a half minute of Amanda in control in that round with Valentina doing all the damage and Amanda literally doing nothing in that regard. Like they say in boxing, ask yourself who would you rather be in that round.

I think people should seriously reconsider the scoring system in MMA because right now the ruleset and the scoring is just ridiculous with every judge interpreting it differently. I liked the Pride type of scoring the most where you simply score the fight as a whole. Boxing-style scoring just doesn't work for MMA because the rounds are too few and last too long and there are too many things involved. I think the judges value the end of the round too much and sometimes completely forget what happened in the first 3 minutes. If a fighter scores a late takedown they often magically give him the round no matter what happened before, like it happened here.

As for the rounds 2-4 Amanda didn't do anything other than plodding around and throwing sloppy leg kicks and hitting air and getting countered. Valentina wasn't particularly busy but she countered with some clean shots to the head. Most of Amanda's strikes were to the legs and those leg kicks didn't look particularly hard. Scoring leg kicks equally as headshots is another flaw. The point of leg kicks is to either gauge distance or to chop the opponent's legs and tire him/her so that you can hit him/her to the head later. It's not the end goal of the fight.

There's another thing that makes UFC look ridiculous and that's the failure to deduct points for fauls. The referee gave Amanda a ton of warnings for extended fingers yet never deducted a point. What's the point of banning certain things if you're only going to warn the fighter and never take a point away? The referees should be far more trigger happy with point deductions. Until they start deducting points the fighters will just ignore it like Amanda did.

Like I said, the solution should be to bring back the Pride system with scoring the fights as a whole and yellow cards. That was a much more better and more entertaining version of MMA. It made the fighters go for it more because you had to be more aggressive rather than just counting on scoring rounds.

For me, boxing is a sport where you should score it round-by-round but MMA should be treated as a fight where you simply ask, "who won the fight?" at the end as if you were watching two people brawling on the street.

Last edited by al89; 10-Sep-17 at 21:14.
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  #55  
Old 10-Sep-17, 21:58
brooksie brooksie is offline
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Default Re: UFC 215 - Nunes vs Shevchenko

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Originally Posted by al89 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Like I said, the solution should be to bring back the Pride system with scoring the fights as a whole and yellow cards. That was a much more better and more entertaining version of MMA. It made the fighters go for it more because you had to be more aggressive rather than just counting on scoring rounds.

For me, boxing is a sport where you should score it round-by-round but MMA should be treated as a fight where you simply ask, "who won the fight?" at the end as if you were watching two people brawling on the street.
I couldn't agree more. Just as MMA training has evolved, so should the judging. The boxing model doesn't work well in close fights. As with the fighters themselves, I'd like to see a new breed of MMA judges who are trained in this sport, not some old retreads who think they're still judging boxing.
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  #56  
Old 10-Sep-17, 22:02
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Default Re: UFC 215 - Nunes vs Shevchenko

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Originally Posted by brooksie [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
I couldn't agree more. Just as MMA training has evolved, so should the judging. The boxing model doesn't work well in close fights. As with the fighters themselves, I'd like to see a new breed of MMA judges who are trained in this sport, not some old retreads who think they're still judging boxing.
Unfortunately the State Commissions control all that. So you know, politics.
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  #57  
Old 10-Sep-17, 22:04
al89 al89 is offline
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Default Re: UFC 215 - Nunes vs Shevchenko

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Originally Posted by brooksie [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
I couldn't agree more. Just as MMA training has evolved, so should the judging. The boxing model doesn't work well in close fights. As with the fighters themselves, I'd like to see a new breed of MMA judges who are trained in this sport, not some old retreads who think they're still judging boxing.
Yeah. I think they adopted the boxing model just because the wanted to present MMA as a legitimate sport and they wanted to make it look more like the already established combat sport of boxing. That was back in the day when MMA was still banned in many USA states. But at this point MMA is already established enough and there's no need for it anymore.

A 5 minute MMA round is just too complex and too long to simply score it in a 10-9 type of format. It's much easier to score 3 minute boxing rounds.
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  #58  
Old 10-Sep-17, 22:25
brooksie brooksie is offline
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Default Re: UFC 215 - Nunes vs Shevchenko

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Originally Posted by al89 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Yeah. I think they adopted the boxing model just because the wanted to present MMA as a legitimate sport and they wanted to make it look more like the already established combat sport of boxing. That was back in the day when MMA was still banned in many USA states. But at this point MMA is already established enough and there's no need for it anymore.

A 5 minute MMA round is just too complex and too long to simply score it in a 10-9 type of format. It's much easier to score 3 minute boxing rounds.
Yep, I think you put your finger on it. It may be something a lot of today's fans don't remember but I recall the days when folks like John McCain called it human cockfighting. It wasn't that long ago. It's only been unbanned in NY state recently. I think the one good thing that came from the Mayweather/McGregor fight was that MMA is now it's own sport, as legit but much different than boxing. The point that boxing is easier to score on a point system because it has fewer elements to judge is a very important one. MMA has to have some reward for the factors that aren't a part of the boxing judges criteria.
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  #59  
Old 10-Sep-17, 23:45
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Default Re: UFC 215 - Nunes vs Shevchenko

I'm glad Nunes got the decision. Valentina was with her back to the fence, waiting to counter almost the entirety of the fight. Amanda was mostly playing it safe, afraid of said counters. I thought neither fighter did enough to warrant victory. And when that is the case the champion gets the split decision more often than not. And that's correct imo. I believe you have to beat the champion to become one, and Valentina didn't do that.

Btw I didn't really like the way Valentina was cornered in-between rounds - her coach was calling her to be cautious every time, giving tips about defense only. Even in round 5 corner advice lacked urgency.
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  #60  
Old 11-Sep-17, 02:37
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Default Re: UFC 215 - Nunes vs Shevchenko

While I think Valentina should have won the decision I agree that she should have done better and ultimately has herself to blame. She gave way too much respect to Amanda. I think it was a good strategy to be tentative in the first two rounds but in the third round Valentina should have come forward and try to crowd Amanda and make it a brawl.

It's not only about winning fights but also about performances. Not many fans are going to look forward to her fights in the future if she keeps fighting like this.

I mean I like Valentina but her style is just too boring right now. Maybe it's because she's always smaller than her opponents and it makes her more cautious. If she goes down to 125 she should definitely be more aggressive.
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