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  #11  
Old 30-Jan-15, 06:02
NewYork NewYork is offline
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Default Re: Underground Wrestling Community and Going Forward

I love this convo. But we need girls. Doom Maidens were great but they are basically not what they used to be.
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  #12  
Old 30-Jan-15, 11:38
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DiabloNYC DiabloNYC is offline
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Default Re: Underground Wrestling Community and Going Forward

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewYork [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
I love this convo. But we need girls. Doom Maidens were great but they are basically not what they used to be.
Wow, that is a loaded statement...

But indeed, the video production company is more active than it has ever been. So much activity every week, working with female and male wrestlers from far and wide, enjoying great social communications with fans and supports, and having established two well-matted wrestling spaces in Brooklyn. Granted, it's true, we never did these things "before"!

In 2013, we co-hosted a live event with FEMWIN that was bigger than any we'd ever had before. More guest wrestlers, more attendees, more wrestling rooms than the event in 2007. That's a change, for sure!

And, happily, the larger of our two spaces is so accommodating that we are planning a new live event for this year. Oh, what a change to have accommodating management.

@[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] @[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] @[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

But by "not what they used to be," I strongly suspect you may be pining for more accessible session wrestlers in the NYC area. That is not something the company can provide. In earlier years, there were (possibly?) more session wrestlers in New York, and we interacted with them, filmed with them helped them train. However, there seem to be fewer local session wrestlers in town right now, as I understand... or maybe fewer of the type you personally want to see. In fact, two session wrestling ladies we worked with just recently moved away as well. Traveling wrestlers, however, do continue to come to town.

I know you do not live in the city, NewYork, so you may not see it as clearly, but the climate of New York City is changing. Manhattan is losing "underground" spaces at an incredible rate; luxury condos are taking over, rising rents are pushing people out. Small-time event promoters get tired of the struggle for venues in Manhattan, which puts a damper on alternative community activity. You may have fond memories of underground goings-on in Manhattan, and I'm sure those stick in your mind and hit the nostalgia button. But perhaps you don't see or can't find similar goings-on now...

But there is a buzzing alternative scene in Brooklyn. Adventurous people are mustering there. But that scene, NewYork, is not the FemDom scene that you knew and liked from Manhattan, so it might not be your cup-of-joe. However, it is here that can be found these adventurous people who are excited about underground wrestling (but they just might not be interested in session wrestling)

Last edited by DiabloNYC; 30-Jan-15 at 12:38.
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  #13  
Old 30-Jan-15, 13:33
HanzVanDerKill HanzVanDerKill is offline
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Default Re: Underground Wrestling Community and Going Forward

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Originally Posted by mixedwrestlingnyc [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
the climate of New York City is changing. Manhattan is losing "underground" spaces at an incredible rate; luxury condos are taking over, rising rents are pushing people out. Small-time event promoters get tired of the struggle for venues in Manhattan, which puts a damper on alternative community activity. You may have fond memories of underground goings-on in Manhattan, and I'm sure those stick in your mind and hit the nostalgia button. But perhaps you don't see or can't find similar goings-on now...
Ah yes! This little bit brought up a poignant memory for me. Many of my favorite memories of the NYC wrestling underground are either directly from, or stem from the original GrappleDen parties. Often there would be guest session wrestlers there which could definitely be fun. But the ones that stick out particularly are the times I found myself on the mats with a random party go-er. There was the time a waitress from the venue above took a quick break from her shift to come down and quickly call me out for the first match of the night, the time I wrestled a trio of girls who would tag in and out on me, the time myself, Veve and a girl we knew primarily from training were the only 3 brave enough to oil wrestle that night so we had a triple threat oil match while people rooted for their favorites from the audience. These will make interesting stories for another time.

Recently, we filmed a 3 on 1 Judo custom at what I would call the tertiary shooting venue. Unlike the current two which are located in Brooklyn, this one is in Manhattan. Not far from where the GrappleDen parties used to take place. I decided after the shoot was done to take a trip down nostalgia lane. The hooka restaurant that used to let the parties go on in their basement is now a fresh produce grocery market. One can vaguely make out the architecture of where the bar used to be. In the back corner there's a little nook where the shelving wraps around a corner. This was where the notirious Black Door used to be where people would pay the entry fee and take the stairs defending into the edgy fun happening below. There is no door anymore and the shelving covering the wall there stocks among all things, olive and coconut oils. Somehow appropriate. I decided to split before spending too much time staring at the shelves. Lol

The venue situation has become progressively harder. I've seen it for other (non-wrestling) parties too. The space will be there one month and gone the next. It's a tough go out there for sure.
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  #14  
Old 30-Jan-15, 13:48
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DiabloNYC DiabloNYC is offline
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Default Re: Underground Wrestling Community and Going Forward

Quote:
Originally Posted by HanzVanDerKill [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
The venue situation has become progressively harder. I've seen it for other (non-wrestling) parties too. The space will be there one month and gone the next. It's a tough go out there for sure.
Having really good feelings about East Williamsburg.
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  #15  
Old 30-Jan-15, 20:16
elliebi001 elliebi001 is offline
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Default Re: Underground Wrestling Community and Going Forward

This may seem stupid to some of you, but NYC always was a better place when it was on the naughty side. When 42nd St. was the center of nasty activities and bookstores, the city seemed more alive and exciting. Now it's almost like Disney bought it and opened it for the kiddies to come play. It should be the adults playing.
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  #16  
Old 30-Jan-15, 21:03
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DiabloNYC DiabloNYC is offline
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Default Re: Underground Wrestling Community and Going Forward

Quote:
Originally Posted by elliebi001 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
This may seem stupid to some of you, but NYC always was a better place when it was on the naughty side. When 42nd St. was the center of nasty activities and bookstores, the city seemed more alive and exciting. Now it's almost like Disney bought it and opened it for the kiddies to come play. It should be the adults playing.
Oh yes, I think a lot of people would agree with you. Granted, I am incredibly grateful for the decline in murders and muggings, but the Disney-fication is appalling. The family-friendly factor is quite dominant, and it often stabs me in the eyeball. Manhattan has been getting massively scrub-a-dub-dubbed. And don't even get me started on the ubiquitous and fancy baby strollers...

But again, for the record, I'm super grateful to have clean, safe subways. I'm super grateful to be able to ride the train or bus late at night without being *too* fearful of a knife attack. But when the world gets too squeaky-clean, it makes things difficult for peaceful fetish folks

EDIT: and I JUST now stumbled across an article published this week about rumors to demolish another NYC nightlife spot. It's a Lower East Side building that used to be a bank but for the last 20+ years has been a goth nightclub (and was once a strip club). Just sharing this to give you guys a glimpse of what is happening with the underground culture in Manhattan: [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

Last edited by DiabloNYC; 30-Jan-15 at 21:25. Reason: Adding link to article that I just found.
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  #17  
Old 30-Jan-15, 21:39
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DiabloNYC DiabloNYC is offline
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Default Re: Underground Wrestling Community and Going Forward

Gah, but I don't mean to sound overly frowny. I'm telling you guys, Brooklyn is where it's at. Maybe Queens too, but who wants to go there! @[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
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  #18  
Old 30-Jan-15, 22:50
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vevelane vevelane is offline
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Default Re: Underground Wrestling Community and Going Forward

Well, this was supposed to be my blogging day, but I got a tip that there was an interesting discussion going on here (and also that Diablo might be spreading around some of my "early days in the scene" stories), and I thought weighing in on this thread would be a neat substitute for blogging.

So where's the real-life, in-person wrestling scene coming from, where's it going, and how can it (or can it at all) be built-up/shaped/revived? This is going to be a long post, with a lot of my thoughts on the matter, so you've been warned… (Just adding this now that I finished writing, I seriously do apologize for the length.)

Responding to a description of some very high-stakes women's matches, thatguylouis says:
Quote:
What you're describing is for me at least the major appeal of underground wrestling, when both women involved have a legitimate enjoyment of the sport and view it more than a paycheck it can create some really fantastic matches with pride on the line.
BUT it was already said that
Quote:
These "in the moment" captured moments are definitely rare
So it seems there's this idea of a perfect match that's real, that's organic, that has meaning and context and backstory, and that is very rare. And there's a desire to "bring back" the kind of environment where Those Matches happen between women. But that's hard to do.

Here's the bad news (there is good news later, never fear). Setting out directly to create Those Matches is 100% impossible. You can create a video "in that style" or an "homage" event, but then you'll be missing the most important ingredient that makes Those Matches so exciting, the context. Those Matches are rare, because they "just happen" when conditions are right. They're the highlights, the one match you remember out of 10 or 20 or 100 that were more average. And if, somehow, it were possible for Those Matches to happen all the time, for the women it would be exhausting and off-putting to have "pride on the line" every time, and for the guys, Those Matches would no longer be special -- somehow the stakes would have to be raised again.

The only way to create Those Matches is to create the scene and community where they can happen. A little more bad news -- that's hard to do. Sentiments like Diablo's penpal's
Quote:
I just know the right guy could get it done
and NewYork's
Quote:
we need girls
are only going to bring out professional women. I certainly know a lot of phenomenal professional women - myself included - who love wrestling and what they do, but in the context of building a scene, a pure-pro membership both misses the point and makes the community smaller. How to create the right environment? Age-old question -- how to get more women to wrestle?

Women like wrestling for all kinds of reasons - for sport for competition; to do something tough, or adventurous, or even silly; to hang out with friends; maybe this one will try anything once; maybe this one likes to show off; maybe this one loves costumes, characters, superheroes, WWE… (Sidenote: judging from recent conversations with other Doom Maidens ladies and how many say they'd love to do pirate, vampire, princess, etc. videos, that last one's actually pretty big.)

Now the good news! The scenes and communities where all this fun stuff can happen are real. They come and go, but they have existed and can exist. I remember a very active and vibrant scene when I was first getting into wrestling -- indeed, it's how I got into wrestling.

I think back on the events that I attended then -- events that Diablo and Hanz have described a bit already -- and there were opportunities for women to wrestle there for any and all of the reasons I mentioned.

Amateur Female Jello Wrestling was fantastic -- mostly women would show up, goof off, do wacky, messy pro-style matches, and have a great time. But all kinds of matches would happen. I brought my never-wrestled-in-her-life sister one night, and for her first time, I tried to let her win -- but she absolutely refused! Least competitive match ever! But fun, and it was great my sister felt comfortable enough to come out and try. On the other hand, the first women who came together to form Doom Maidens were jello wrestlers who wanted to learn more competitive wrestling. And on the other other hand, one night I had one of Those Matches… A former friend and her boyfriend had really insulted my boyfriend. Since it was a women's only wrestling event, the men weren't allowed to get physical about the situation -- but we ladies were. The slippery jello made it impossible for either of us to hold on well enough to score a win, but we were determined and just kept fighting until the MC had to stop it and move along the night.

I think back to the fetish and BDSM parties I went to as well. There was so much going on -- someone who came for the flogging might want to jump in and give the wrestling a try. A domme might want to order her sub to take a wrestle-beating. And a wrestler tired after a few matches might want to watch or try out some of the other activities.

AND I think back on the Grapple Den parties. Again, there were so many types of matches. Training for newcomers at the beginning, matches between friends who came together and pairs who just met that night, women's matches, mixed matches, men's matches, mini-sessions, "traditional matches" between regulars who fought each other every single time… Something for everyone to do but also something for everyone to see, no one sidelined or in the spotlight the whole time, chances to fight and chances to chill out.

So after all this writing, what's my point? It's this: any event created with the intention to make a show of a certain type of women's match has the potential to be a cool event, but it will be more of the professional and less of the community. Creating community where cool things just happen is a super-imprecise procedure. There are a few things not to do, but as for what to do…

It takes a lot of events, environments that are low-pressure and welcoming to newcomers, and it takes time for it to build up and for the friendships and rivalries that add intensity to the scene and to matches to develop. It takes luck, and the right moment, and giving up rigid expectations. It takes a lot of people to make community. Probably one person can't force it to happen. But one person can try…and it may not go anywhere. But that person can try again, or another person can try, and as long as someone keeps striking sparks one time one of them will catch. A second person will get inspired, more people will take notice… It's super hard to do except when it just happens, and when it does, it's worth it.

And every time one of these moments happens, it's going to be different than moments before. As a lot of people just noted in this thread, New York City right now is a lot different that it was even a few years ago. If any of the underground wrestling sparks floating around here currently do catch, we'd be looking at a Brooklyn scene rather than a Manhattan scene. Elsewhere it's been discussed how women's wrestling styles and their access to training has been changing; a current scene would undoubtedly include more jiu-jitsu than any scene from a pre-UFC time. Fashion changes in sports and fitness as much as anywhere; in the "real" world I feel like I see a lot of yoga pants lately -- will they make their way into underground wrestling?

No two scene moments will look just alike. If the whole idea is about the real, authentic, and organic, they can't. They grow out of their times and places. But if the whole idea is about the real and authentic, the feeling should be what counts.

Last edited by vevelane; 30-Jan-15 at 23:33. Reason: missing word
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  #19  
Old 31-Jan-15, 00:42
mnicolo mnicolo is offline
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Default Re: Underground Wrestling Community and Going Forward

this is mike in Portland, soon coming home to NJ-Philly. Thanks for the awesome insights Veve !
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  #20  
Old 31-Jan-15, 00:45
elliebi001 elliebi001 is offline
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Default Re: Underground Wrestling Community and Going Forward

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Crystal Club (?) or Hellfire Club where women wrestled quite often. I believe it was in Manhattan. There are many videos of their fights on YouTube. It might have had another name, too.
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