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  #131  
Old 04-Aug-18, 13:26
ClckwrkOra ClckwrkOra is offline
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

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Originally Posted by jiminy [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
There's actually some evidence to counter this. ...And I've got documented sources and quotes from those involved to hopefully please @[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

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Luke Saville was ranked 421 on the main tour at the time and was a few weeks shy of turning 19, so not exactly a "kid". He would be ranked #152 two years later.

Kokkinakis was ranked in the 700s, but in rapid ascendance at the time. He was fresh from taking the #24 Fernando Verdasco to a tie-break in the first set of their Hopman Cup match a week or so prior. So again, a good player who went on to a career high of #69 by 2015.

Here's also an interesting comment from former top 10 player Sara Errani after losing the 2012 US Open final to Serena Williams:

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In sports where data (time, weight, distance) can be observed, there always comes a point where elite women will beat non-elite men. This can be observed if you go to statistical sites. Top female athletes can and do outperform a hell of a lot of men that dedicate their lives to a particular sport.

From what I can tell, one of Sharapova's opponents was 19-ish and thus perhaps fully developed in the physical sense. The other, 16, probably was not.

While I'm no tennis expert, it seems plausible that an elite female could/would beat non-elite males.
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  #132  
Old 04-Aug-18, 21:33
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

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Originally Posted by ClckwrkOra [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
From what I can tell, one of Sharapova's opponents was 19-ish and thus perhaps fully developed in the physical sense. The other, 16, probably was not.

While I'm no tennis expert, it seems plausible that an elite female could/would beat non-elite males.
Again, it really depends on the individual. Bear in mind Kokkinakis - the 16 year old - had pushed the no. 24 Fernando Verdasco to a tie break in a match the week before. Despite his age, he was probably playing like a top 200 player at the time.

Also keep in mind the fact that Boris Becker, Michael Chang and Mats Wilander all won majors when they were just 17. Of course on the women's side it's even more common for good players to find success in their teens.
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  #133  
Old 05-Aug-18, 18:20
ClckwrkOra ClckwrkOra is offline
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

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Originally Posted by jiminy [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Again, it really depends on the individual. Bear in mind Kokkinakis - the 16 year old - had pushed the no. 24 Fernando Verdasco to a tie break in a match the week before. Despite his age, he was probably playing like a top 200 player at the time.

Also keep in mind the fact that Boris Becker, Michael Chang and Mats Wilander all won majors when they were just 17. Of course on the women's side it's even more common for good players to find success in their teens.

I understand.

As this thread primarily contemplates hypothetical match-ups, I tend to look more at what seems more or less likely.
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  #134  
Old 20-Oct-18, 16:01
Amazonia Amazonia is offline
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiminy [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
In sports where data (time, weight, distance) can be observed, there always comes a point where elite women will beat non-elite men. This can be observed if you go to statistical sites. Top female athletes can and do outperform a hell of a lot of men that dedicate their lives to a particular sport.
So I recently researched the subject of men vs women in pro tennis and found this:

In late 2002 the Swiss female WTA player Patty Schnyder (fringe top 20 female player at the time) defeated a 1183 ranked ATP male player Patrick Mayr in a real match in straight sets 7-6 7-5. They were both 23 year old and in their prime.

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News title in German: "Schnyder won the battle of the sexes"

The male player was also Austrian regional champion in Tyrol and had a career high ranking 892 just months prior to their match.

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The match was part of the St. Anton Trophy. They used to add a "battle of the sexes" match to their tournament every year.

Mayr was a huge favorite and was expected to win. People were saying that it was a mismatch.

It was a real competitive match and not just a meaningless exhibition. This is a comment from a tennis fan who watched the match:

Quote:
Schnyder vs Mayr wasnt faked. The croud really laughed at Mayr after the match cause he really was upset. Before the match everyone said that Patty will have no chance but she proved them wrong.
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Patty Schnyder legitimately beat Patrick Mayr 7-6 7-5!!

People commented that he looked nervous while Patty was more used to playing in front of crowds under pressure. This is another thing that is often overlooked in these elite women vs non-elite men debates; elite women are used to pressure and performing in big events while most non-elite men probably aren't. It looks like this what made Mayr very nervous... The pressure of playing against (and losing!) to a woman in front of a crowd must have made him really anxious and he ultimately broke.

He definitely didn't want to become known as the guy who lost to Patty Schnyder but that's what essentially happened to him. While searching for more info about the match I found a funny comment on some German sports forum where a poster who pasted random tennis results couldn't help himself and added a nickname of Patrick "I-lost-to-Patty-Schnyder" Mayr while reporting his result in an unrelated male vs male tennis match:

[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] (post #81)

Other members noticed the nickname and commented on it and mocked his embarrassing loss to a female player, saying things like...

"Oh my God, the poor guy must have really got embarrassed by Patty " (post #84)

Post #86 for example (my translation from German): "Patrick Mayr played in a "battle of the sexes" match at the end of last year. The match was supposed to show that a #1187 male (Mayr) can beat a top 10 female player any time.
Patty wasn't a top 10, however, but a top 20 player.
The end of the story was that Patty beat the poor Patrick Mayr in two straight sets. "


Also this comment here by an Austrian tennis fan:
Quote:
Patrick Mayr hasnt shown his face in public since he got beat by Patty two years ago. I doubt that kind of embarassment is worth the 10 or 15 thousand$ that these guys are getting paid for the exho.
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As you can see, an utterly humiliating loss.

Patty Schnyder was never on the level of the likes of prime Serena Williams or Sharapova but was still able to humiliate a top 1000 male player like this.

So if she could do this, there are definitely elite women out there who could beat plenty of male pro players inside top 1000, especially considering that those men would be playing under huge pressure not to get defeated by a woman while the elite women are much more used to playing in front of huge crowds under pressure.

The story with Patty Schnyder playing against men didn't end here however. Mayr was a top 25 Austrian player and by beating him she humiliated the entire Austrian male tennis and the Austrian players wanted revenge.

As this comment says:

Quote:
[Patty]'s got to know that the Austrian men have put a price on her head now. Even though it was only Patrick Mayr, that match had to be a big embarrassment for Austrian men's tennis.
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So next year (2003) they matched her up against a top Austrian prospect and a #250 ATP player Daniel Köllerer.

Köllerer was a big favorite and people expected him to win easily but the match was surprisingly competitive with Köllerer winning 6-2 6-4 which isn't that bad for Patty. People were expecting him to humiliate her to punish her for the humiliation she inflicted on Austrian male tennis but she held her own and made it competitive and made him work for victory.

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Then a year later she challenged another ATP top 300 Austrian pro male Thomas Schiessling who also beat her 6-3 6-1.

So it took top 300 ATP players to avenge the embarrassing loss of their fellow Austrian male player.

Those are supposedly the "battle of the sexes" matches they held in previous years:

1996: Emilio Sanchez d. Kimberly Po-Messerli 60 60
1997: /
1998: Joern Renzenbrink GER d. Sandra Dopfer AUT 60 62
1999: Judith Wiesner AUT d. Lars Rehmann GER 8-5
2000: Barbara Paulus AUT d. Carsten Braasch GER 9-7

2001: Nikolay Davidyenko RUS d. Barbara Schett AUT 63 63

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The 1999 and 2000 were supposedly not serious matches but the other ones were authentic. The men won but it's really surprising that Barbara Schett managed to have so much success against Davidyenko.

Account from an Austrian guy who was there:

Quote:
for sure the Paulus vs Braasch and Wiesner vs Rehmann were more exhebition matches than for real

Babsi Schett played wonderful in that match with many winners cause I was there and watched it. The first two matches by Dopfer and Po-Messerli were authetic and showed them if the men play their best tennis the women are having no chance
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It's very hard to find more info because this happened in an era where internet wasn't what it was today.

Anyway, I think that Schnyder vs Mayr match is the most telling here. It was definitely a competitive match where a fringe top 20 woman managed to defeat a top 1000 male.

Also note that Patty Schnyder is not really the most formidable female athlete out there and only 5'6'' tall. Here are some pics of here from that year, 2002:




Last edited by Amazonia; 20-Oct-18 at 19:07.
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  #135  
Old 21-Oct-18, 05:31
matman55 matman55 is offline
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

Maybe the top 10% of girls in physical strength are stronger than the bottom 10% weakest guys

The issue of strength also does not translate into a girl being able to beat you up. A girl who could take it a guy in a serious all out fight instead of rolling around wrestling is incredibly rare
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  #136  
Old 21-Oct-18, 13:20
lfourt lfourt is offline
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

But it also proofs that a top 20 women has a really hard time to beat a man who is ranked 1183. And the pressure to win is also on his side.

To me it proofs that even a man ranked around 1000 is able to beat an elite female.

That´s the reason why i think women vs man does not really work, it´s a mismatch either way. An elite female needs a an male opponent around 1000 to have a small chance to win??
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  #137  
Old 21-Oct-18, 14:04
Amazonia Amazonia is offline
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

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Originally Posted by lfourt [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
But it also proofs that a top 20 women has a really hard time to beat a man who is ranked 1183. And the pressure to win is also on his side.

To me it proofs that even a man ranked around 1000 is able to beat an elite female.
It's true that she struggled with him but she ultimately won. The man was expected to win and people were predicting before the match that he will destroy her. Maybe let her win a point here and there but ultimately show her that he is the boss. Many people were convinced that there was no way a woman could beat a man who is ranked in ATP and scored an ATP point, let alone a top 1000 player.

He was probably thinking that this was going to be an easy match as well and a chance to showcase his skills against an elite female player in front of a big crowd and make a bit of a name for himself. Instead, he got a lesson in humility. He was definitely motivated to win but wasn't able to.

Her win was a huge surprise to many.

Breaking in the top 1000 isn't easy at all. Let's put it this way, consider how many men play tennis in the world and now consider that there were likely less than 1000 men who could beat Patty Schnyder at the time. For many men, this has to be very humbling and hard to accept. That's why they were predicting that the man would handle her easily before the match.

Also, that male player was a regional champ in Tyrol, Austria. It's a country where tennis is popular. This is why this loss was humiliating to other male Austrian tennis players and they felt the need to challenge Patty again.

The next male she played against was a top 300 man and was supposed to make an example out of her and win handily. Patty was ranked #28 that year. However the match was surprisingly competitive and she only lost 6-2 6-4. In comparison, two months before her match against the top 300 male Patty lost to #13 ranked woman Nadia Petrova 6-2 6-2 and to #25 ranked Jelena Dokić 6-0 6-3. So those top 10-30 women beat her more convincingly than the top 300 man even though the man was supposed to prove a point and dominate her completely to avenge the humiliation of his fellow countryman. The top 10 women at the time might even be able to beat that #250 man.

Patty Schnyder wasn't the absolute elite (top 10) of women's tennis and she absolutely wasn't on the level of someone like prime Serena Williams or prime Sharapova.

This is why this loss was even more embarrassing because it was against a fringe top 20 player who doesn't even look like some formidable female athlete. A loss against Serena would probably be easier to swallow for the male ATP player (although probably still very humiliating). It was like a male MMA fighter would lose to some fringe top 20 MMA girl as compared to losing to let's say a formidable dominant female champ like Cyborg (less embarrassing).

Quote:
That´s the reason why i think women vs man does not really work, it´s a mismatch either way. An elite female needs a an male opponent around 1000 to have a small chance to win??
I think elite female vs top 1000 male matches are still interesting enough that they should be played here and there as a one-off event. There is a lot of pride on the line for the man and it makes it interesting to watch. It's also a nice way to see how the women's sport compares to men's. I don't see what the big deal is especially in sports where there is no physical contact.

I wish they would continue with the mixed single matches on that Austrian tournament.

Last edited by Amazonia; 21-Oct-18 at 14:22.
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  #138  
Old 21-Oct-18, 15:00
lfourt lfourt is offline
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

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Originally Posted by Amazonia [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
I think elite female vs top 1000 male matches are still interesting enough that they should be played here and there as a one-off event. There is a lot of pride on the line for the man and it makes it interesting to watch. It's also a nice way to see how the women's sport compares to men's. I don't see what the big deal is especially in sports where there is no physical contact.
Why? it´s always a lose lose situation for a man. socially he has nothing to gain he gets no recognition about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazonia [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
He was definitely motivated to win but wasn't able to.
True. but he is competive and i would not bet that she would beat him every time.
If those matches would happen more often men would get used to it and it would be even harder for women. Take away the social pressure and they would not even beat men on that kind of level.

I think nowdays she should be the embarrassed one . She almost lost to a man ranked 11xx. Or the Williams sisters who lost to Karsten Braasch. It´s jut a proof they are by far not competive to men 1:1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazonia [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
The top 10 women at the time might even be able to beat that #250 man
I don´t think so.

Added after 23 minutes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazonia [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Breaking in the top 1000 isn't easy at all. Let's put it this way, consider how many men play tennis in the world and now consider that there were likely less than 1000 men who could beat Patty Schnyder at the time
The match was close so i think there are far more than 1000 men in the world who would have a chance to beat her.
Breaking in the top 1000 is hard for men in mens tennis.
It would not be really hard for men in womens tennis.

Last edited by lfourt; 21-Oct-18 at 15:00.
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  #139  
Old 21-Oct-18, 15:09
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

Just out of interest, where are you from, ifourt?
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  #140  
Old 21-Oct-18, 15:14
lfourt lfourt is offline
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

From europe.
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