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  #121  
Old 02-Aug-18, 17:41
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

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The fact that Selena wasn't at her peak is irrelevant. A modern day Serena would also lose to Braasch. In recent years she has now ADMITTED herself thst she wouldn't be able to take on a man in tennis and win. The reality is that a top 5 female tennis player would lose to a low ranked male pro.
"The fact is" ...exactly what I said - "I would expect ALL 1961 players to win more than 75% of the *points* played vs the Top 20 women of the WTA (women's tour). I would expect all 1961 to have beaten a 16-year-old Serena."

Did you not read the rest of my earlier reply because you were so blinded by the fact I had dared to challenge your claim that a PROFESSIONAL male athlete would be "washed up" by age 30? That is how your response reads.

Johnny X-who-sometimes-drinks-too-much is going to have a bad day when a 26-year-old phenom is playing her best tennis, so the possibility of an upset exists, but one should expect the #1500 men's player to beat the women's #1 almost every single time.
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  #122  
Old 02-Aug-18, 18:51
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

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Originally Posted by KillerCrushes [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
"The fact is" ...exactly what I said - "I would expect ALL 1961 players to win more than 75% of the *points* played vs the Top 20 women of the WTA (women's tour). I would expect all 1961 to have beaten a 16-year-old Serena."

Did you not read the rest of my earlier reply because you were so blinded by the fact I had dared to challenge your claim that a PROFESSIONAL male athlete would be "washed up" by age 30? That is how your response reads.

Johnny X-who-sometimes-drinks-too-much is going to have a bad day when a 26-year-old phenom is playing her best tennis, so the possibility of an upset exists, but one should expect the #1500 men's player to beat the women's #1 almost every single time.

If genetics has indeed created a class of hyper-strong females, wouldn't Serena be example of it?

Strength alone may not win tennis matches.

But it may not hurt to add muscle to hit serves harder, say.
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  #123  
Old 02-Aug-18, 19:10
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

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I'm sure that Serena never did or never would say that it would be impossible for her to win a tennis match against any man. She did not that she could not beat any of the hundreds of thousands or millions of male recreational tennis players - her comparison group is male pro tennis players.

So what we are left with is what everyone should have completely understood to begin with: a top female pro tennis player would lose to a much lower ranked male pro. That still puts her ahead of most men.
Exactly. Thank you. I feel we've been running around in circles on this.
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  #124  
Old 02-Aug-18, 19:11
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

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Originally Posted by ClckwrkOra [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
If genetics has indeed created a class of hyper-strong females, wouldn't Serena be example of it?

Strength alone may not win tennis matches.

But it may not hurt to add muscle to hit serves harder, say.
I think as alluded to above in the quote of Serena herself, it is chasing balls down that is a big advantage for male players in tennis often, as well as a reach advantage typically.

Interestingly (strangely even?) Venus seems to have a faster serve than Serena. Sabine Lisicki has the fastest women's serve I think - faster than a lot of male players even, for example David Ferrer, but it doesn't mean she'd beat him (although she is a good player herself, and maybe a bit more mobile than Serena although I'm not sure).

To lighten the mood of the thread a bit maybe: I'll post this I noticed earlier with Maria Sharapova in a tennis challenge with Novak Djokovic - the hole in one she gets at tennis golf is impressive, and she gets the "new balls please" joke in after accidentally driving a tennis ball into his private area in one challenge!
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Actually a Spanish girl (6"2 in height and looking at the men's records height can help service speed a lot, although I guess it depends on service action and suchlike too) beat Lisicki's record I see now, and also hit a faster serve than Djokovic or Rafael Nadal (if muscles were the main factor he'd be higher on the men's list I'm sure).
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  #125  
Old 02-Aug-18, 20:38
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

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I think as alluded to above in the quote of Serena herself, it is chasing balls down that is a big advantage for male players in tennis often, as well as a reach advantage typically.

Interestingly (strangely even?) Venus seems to have a faster serve than Serena. Sabine Lisicki has the fastest women's serve I think - faster than a lot of male players even, for example David Ferrer, but it doesn't mean she'd beat him (although she is a good player herself, and maybe a bit more mobile than Serena although I'm not sure).

To lighten the mood of the thread a bit maybe: I'll post this I noticed earlier with Maria Sharapova in a tennis challenge with Novak Djokovic - the hole in one she gets at tennis golf is impressive, and she gets the "new balls please" joke in after accidentally driving a tennis ball into his private area in one challenge!
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Actually a Spanish girl (6"2 in height and looking at the men's records height can help service speed a lot, although I guess it depends on service action and suchlike too) beat Lisicki's record I see now, and also hit a faster serve than Djokovic or Rafael Nadal (if muscles were the main factor he'd be higher on the men's list I'm sure).
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I was playing devil's advocate. I know zilch about tennis, but I would never say that strength alone carries the day.

I'd be curious how much a fast serve matters at the pro level.

Baseball pitchers seemingly focus on throwing heat, but the hitters dread pitches that move in weird directions.
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  #126  
Old 02-Aug-18, 20:51
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

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I was playing devil's advocate. I know zilch about tennis, but I would never say that strength alone carries the day.

I'd be curious how much a fast serve matters at the pro level.

Baseball pitchers seemingly focus on throwing heat, but the hitters dread pitches that move in weird directions.
I think it can be a good asset to have, but often the fastest servers can set themselves up for a winning return by the opponent I think too!

But the main reason (with the men anyway) that the best players aren't often the fastest servers is that they do tend to be the really tall players who can't turn as quickly and perhaps aren't as good with finesse shots. Federer, at 6"2 I think (without checking that link again), has more of an all round game.

I think the fastest servers won't always be the ones with the fastest ground strokes though anyway. Nadal must be closer to the top for that surely, and Serena I'd guess could be at the top for the women. It seems to be her relentless fast ground strokes that wear the opponents down (or just often mean they can't get to the ball) in the women's game.

But yeah, I knew you'd not intended to say strength was the main factor. Whether Lisicki is about as strong as Ferrer I wouldn't know but she could have the faster serve without being I think (and I'd be surprised if her strength was so close to Nadal's like the serve speeds would indicate). I guess throwing the ball high in the air and making a big jump will help the speed (with the ball accelerating from a higher connection point in the air) and players that like to hit a flat serve tend to serve faster I guess.

The women's serve speeds (even fastest to fastest) are more than 75% of the men's though I notice, and like I say there is some overlap (but I couldn't be sure it's due to strength, or muscle mass etc).

I sort of wonder whether Steffi Graf might have done ok against mid-ranked male pros but it's impossible to say. I guess her game was a bit more nuanced than Serena's though, and ability wise she'd be better than a majority of male players maybe in terms of her shot making - Serena has skill too of course but if her power game wasn't overwhelming opponents (as against men who can chase her shots down easier) then maybe that'd mess up her gameplan lol!

Just to add re: the baseball thing - yeah the link mentioned Federer as not being the fastest but having a great serve, and the ability to play a variety of different serves (some even not so quick, but very accurate and with some spin to take the ball wide etc) helps I think.
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  #127  
Old 02-Aug-18, 21:20
ClckwrkOra ClckwrkOra is offline
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

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Originally Posted by Armwrestlefan99 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
I think it can be a good asset to have, but often the fastest servers can set themselves up for a winning return by the opponent I think too!

But the main reason (with the men anyway) that the best players aren't often the fastest servers is that they do tend to be the really tall players who can't turn as quickly and perhaps aren't as good with finesse shots. Federer, at 6"2 I think (without checking that link again), has more of an all round game.

I think the fastest servers won't always be the ones with the fastest ground strokes though anyway. Nadal must be closer to the top for that surely, and Serena I'd guess could be at the top for the women. It seems to be her relentless fast ground strokes that wear the opponents down (or just often mean they can't get to the ball) in the women's game.

But yeah, I knew you'd not intended to say strength was the main factor. Whether Lisicki is about as strong as Ferrer I wouldn't know but she could have the faster serve without being I think (and I'd be surprised if her strength was so close to Nadal's like the serve speeds would indicate). I guess throwing the ball high in the air and making a big jump will help the speed (with the ball accelerating from a higher connection point in the air) and players that like to hit a flat serve tend to serve faster I guess.

The women's serve speeds (even fastest to fastest) are more than 75% of the men's though I notice, and like I say there is some overlap (but I couldn't be sure it's due to strength, or muscle mass etc).

I sort of wonder whether Steffi Graf might have done ok against mid-ranked male pros but it's impossible to say. I guess her game was a bit more nuanced than Serena's though, and ability wise she'd be better than a majority of male players maybe in terms of her shot making - Serena has skill too of course but if her power game wasn't overwhelming opponents (as against men who can chase her shots down easier) then maybe that'd mess up her gameplan lol!

Just to add re: the baseball thing - yeah the link mentioned Federer as not being the fastest but having a great serve, and the ability to play a variety of different serves (some even not so quick, but very accurate and with some spin to take the ball wide etc) helps I think.

If you had a male and a female making identical motions as they served, I'd think the guy's would go faster because he has more body mass to put behind it.

I know even less about soccer than tennis. But I believe men boot the ball longer/faster for that reason.

As with baseball pitchers, I'd think that hitting 100-mph. tennis serves alone won't win you any tournaments.
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  #128  
Old 04-Aug-18, 01:58
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

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Be that as it may, every male tennis pro on tour is a male tennis pro on tour. According to the ATP (men's tour) website, 1961 men have registered at least a point in the rankings this year. I would expect ALL 1961 players to win more than 75% of the *points* played vs the Top 20 women of the WTA (women's tour). I would expect all 1961 to have beaten a 16-year-old Serena.
There's actually some evidence to counter this. ...And I've got documented sources and quotes from those involved to hopefully please @[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

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Sharapova roughs up local boys

Melbourne: Short of tournament sharpness in the build-up to the Australian Open because of injury, Maria Sharapova has found a novel way of playing herself into form - roughing up the local boys.

The Russian world number two has been getting into the groove by beating up on Australia's top young players, having pulled out of Brisbane with a neck injury last week.

Sharapova has found some willing opponents in a couple of Australians, including Luke Saville, last year's junior champion at Melbourne Park.

"I played a couple of the junior boys here - actually a good couple of Australian kids," Sharapova told reporters on Saturday.

"I think one of them got a wild card in the main draw."

---

The other hitting partner was 16-year-old Thanasi Kokkinakis, a player tipped as having a bright future and who impressed when stepping in for the injured John Isner at the Hopman Cup last week.

Unfortunately for Kokkinakis, Sharapova's fiercely competitive streak ensured that she would not allow him the pleasure of a victory.

"One of them was really on top of me and then I got really mad," said the 25-year-old, who tried to protect his identity. "I think he had eight set points and I ended up winning the set.

"I'm not going to tell who it is," she laughed. "Too embarrassed. I don't think he slept well after that one!"
Luke Saville was ranked 421 on the main tour at the time and was a few weeks shy of turning 19, so not exactly a "kid". He would be ranked #152 two years later.

Kokkinakis was ranked in the 700s, but in rapid ascendance at the time. He was fresh from taking the #24 Fernando Verdasco to a tie-break in the first set of their Hopman Cup match a week or so prior. So again, a good player who went on to a career high of #69 by 2015.

Here's also an interesting comment from former top 10 player Sara Errani after losing the 2012 US Open final to Serena Williams:

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“Given that men are always quick to say women are a lot worse … I’d love to see her play in a (lower-level) men’s tournament and see how they deal with her. It’s easy to talk. On the court, it would be different,” the 10th-seeded Sara Errani said.

“I’ve practiced with a lot of guys ranked 400th or 500th,” Errani explained. “I’ve never played with a man who hits as hard as she does.”
In sports where data (time, weight, distance) can be observed, there always comes a point where elite women will beat non-elite men. This can be observed if you go to statistical sites. Top female athletes can and do outperform a hell of a lot of men that dedicate their lives to a particular sport.

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  #129  
Old 04-Aug-18, 05:23
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

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Originally Posted by jiminy [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
There's actually some evidence to counter this. ...And I've got documented sources and quotes from those involved to hopefully please @[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

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Luke Saville was ranked 421 on the main tour at the time and was a few weeks shy of turning 19, so not exactly a "kid". He would be ranked #152 two years later.
In light of the new information, I stand corrected and would like to update my prior statement a bit. I did not realize juniors were included in the ATP rankings. I mean, I didn't *think* there were 1500+ active touring pros, but can see how you'd get that number if the juniors were included.

I would still expect most of them to beat a 16-year-old Serena most of the time, but a 16-year-old Serena is going to give lots of 17- and 18-year-old boys fits and maybe create a bit of a mindfuck for several of them. Most should still win, but I can imagine a powerful competitor like Serena having more than held her own.

I'd expect a 26-year-old Serena to have taken multiple sets off guys on the junior circuit.

At 36, I cannot say, but would pay to watch it.
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  #130  
Old 04-Aug-18, 06:38
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Default Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

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In light of the new information, I stand corrected and would like to update my prior statement a bit. I did not realize juniors were included in the ATP rankings. I mean, I didn't *think* there were 1500+ active touring pros, but can see how you'd get that number if the juniors were included.

I would still expect most of them to beat a 16-year-old Serena most of the time, but a 16-year-old Serena is going to give lots of 17- and 18-year-old boys fits and maybe create a bit of a mindfuck for several of them. Most should still win, but I can imagine a powerful competitor like Serena having more than held her own.

I'd expect a 26-year-old Serena to have taken multiple sets off guys on the junior circuit.

At 36, I cannot say, but would pay to watch it.
Ranking points are simply assigned to how a person performs in tournaments. Obviously the higher the ranking, the higher the prestige, but rankings in the 'there and then' sense are by no means an accurate representation of a player's ability.

A little more information is required when a hypothetical scenario such as "a top 10 woman vs. the no. 250 ranked man" is discussed. Is that 250 ranked man a rapidly ascending junior ace who is still a teenager and only ranked 250 because he hasn't played many tournaments on the senior tour or is he a 28 year old journeyman who is likely at a career high? Anyone that follows the sport knows that in all likelihood, the former would most likely be the the much better player and wipe the journeyman off the court as he continues to ascend. Like I said about Kokkinakis, he was ranked in the 700s, but that wasn't an accurate reflection of his ability, merely his level of activity on the main tour. But even if we were to play that game, there is clear and irrefutable evidence that a top woman (a 'rusty' Sharapova) can beat a non-elite but still professional male player.

Karsten Braasch was ranked 203 at the time of his impromptu sets against the Williams sisters, but whether that was an accurate representation of his ability at the time largely depends on how active he had been in 1997. What we do know is that he had been as high as #38 three and a half years prior so he was clearly no scrub when 'in form' and a seasoned pro who went on to win tournaments in doubles through into the new millennium.

Still, Venus managed to break his serve in winning 2 games against him. It's also worth remembering that the top woman at the time was Martina Hingis, who won the Aussie Open that year and had beaten Venus a few months prior in the US Open final in straight sets. The first set she in fact won 6-0 against Venus. Venus didn't truly hit her stride until the summer of 2000 (2.5 years later) and for Serena, despite winning the US Open in 1999 (1.5 years later), didn't become a truly dominant force until 2002/3. The Serena of 2002/3 probably would've beaten the Serena of 1998 6-1 if not 6-0.

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