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  #21  
Old 02-Jan-19, 16:25
ClckwrkOra ClckwrkOra is offline
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Default Re: Who would win in a fight, a 20 year old woman or a 14 year old boy?

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Originally Posted by Jrockbaby [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
I don't think it had a single thing to do with toughness, I think she was just weak, she just had shit for genetics

Whatever you want to call it, she obviously wasn't up to the task that she set for herself.
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  #22  
Old 02-Jan-19, 18:54
del del is offline
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Default Re: Who would win in a fight, a 20 year old woman or a 14 year old boy?

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Originally Posted by Jrockbaby [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
I don't think it had a single thing to do with toughness, I think she was just weak, she just had shit for genetics
Also, I doubt that she was prepared for the ferocity of your resistance and was too mentally off-balance to use whatever strength she did have. I knew a tough girl who grew up wrestling and overpowering boys. Maybe she could have handled you if you were both 10, but at 14 she would surely have beaten the 10 year old you, as well as most 20 year old women.

In general I'd expect most 14 year old boys to win over most 20 year old women because the boys would generally be starting to pull ahead in strength and already way ahead in aggressiveness and determination to win (the fight in the dog). There would be plenty of exciting exceptions to this, of course.
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  #23  
Old 03-Jan-19, 07:52
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jiminy jiminy is offline
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Default Re: Who would win in a fight, a 20 year old woman or a 14 year old boy?

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Originally Posted by ClckwrkOra [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
When I looked it up, I found that as women have been allowed to participate in ultra-distance, they increasingly have out-performed males.


Example:Women outperform men in 20.1 Catalina Channel swim, off Southern Calif’s coast, and 28.5 mile Manhattan Island Marathon swim:

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Example2016: a 42-year-old woman sets course record at Brazos Bend 50-mile race:

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Example:Example: This 30-something woman dominates races of 100-miles plus:

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You are correct on the English Channel. My bad.
Another recent article you might be interested in:

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Quote:
She won the race by some distance. Second place went to Jacob Jackson, who ran 157.58 miles.

"It was the most exciting thing that I beat a highly competitive men's field. I'm over the moon that it actually happened," she says.

"It really became mind over body and it feels like the further you go, the more it became an equaliser in the possibility of women beating men.

"I feel like I am racing against myself but at the same time, the fact that I am against all these top men, it pushes me to raise the bar even higher."

Next up for Herron is the 24 Hour World Championships but she has an even bigger target on her agenda - to make ultrarunning an Olympic sport.
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  #24  
Old 03-Jan-19, 13:00
del del is offline
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Default Re: Who would win in a fight, a 20 year old woman or a 14 year old boy?

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Originally Posted by jiminy [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Another recent article you might be interested in:

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Studies generally show that women have greater fatigue resistance at lower intensity exercise, as examples like this show. However, that advantage decreases as the intensity of the exertion increases (see the graph in [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]). Wrestling or fighting is much higher intensity than long distance swimming or running. So, in a fight between a female and a male, fatigue resistance would not come to the rescue of the female. She would have to win by some combination of strength, speed, skill, conditioning and determination.
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  #25  
Old 03-Jan-19, 15:08
del del is offline
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Default Re: Who would win in a fight, a 20 year old woman or a 14 year old boy?

For a cinematic take on this there is the movie, Abduction Of Zack Butterfield. A hot, crazy ex-special forces woman kidnaps 14 year old Zack, who is an athlete and a star in his karate dojo. She imprisons him with an explosive necklace and can lock him in his room at will. She wants to tame him and make him her partner. He just wants to escape. They are about the same size, but her physique is better. She's no bodybuilder, but you can see that even her upper body muscle mass is greater than his. On top of that, she is a much more proficient fighter. He tries to fight her once and she quickly dominates him. Later he sees her easily take down a snoopy adult male and break his neck. Zack bides his time and works out in his bedroom. One day, April fixes some plumbing with a big pipe wrench and brags that the wrench is her "upper body force multiplier." Zack realizes that he won't beat her by just working out and that he, too, needs an upper body force multiplier if he is to overwhelm this unstable and powerful killer and get away. She made a mistake that gave him the chance to steal the pipe wrench and hide it in his dresser.

In the end she is sitting on his bed anticipating a sex game when he manages to launch a surprise attack with the pipe wrench. The blow knocks her down and he removes the necklace she always wears that controls his explosive necklace. Thinking she is unconscious, he starts to leave. She leaps up grabs his shoulder, knocks the wrench out of his hand and throws him through the air back onto the bed. He kicks her in the face, knocking her down. He kicks her stomach while she's down, but she grabs his leg and uses her other arm to topple him. They rise to their feet and he kicks again, but she easily catches his leg, lifts him, and heaves him onto the bed again.

April is still the dominant one, confident of her own strength and skill, and fighting only to put Zack firmly in his place without damaging him. Zack, on the other hand, is fighting for his life with everything he has. As he lands on the bed, he kicks her in the side of the head, knocking her down on her back on the floor once more. Immediately he pounces on her and starts throwing punches at her face, which she easily swats away. She grabs an arm as he tries to punch her and maneuvers him into an arm bar. She only wants to pacify him, not injure him, so she just holds him in a loose arm bar, expecting him to give in. She doesn't notice that he has reached the wrench with his free hand. He brings the handle down hard on her exposed belly, causing her to release her grip, curl up and roll to the side. He wacks her head, probably cracking her skull. Even in this state, she catches his next blow. There is a test of strength as they try to control each other's arms and suddenly she reaches up and rips his explosive necklace off. He's shocked at this and the fight ends. She says she would never hurt him and then succumbs to her head injury.

Last edited by del; 04-Jan-19 at 13:23. Reason: addition
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  #26  
Old 03-Jan-19, 19:44
ClckwrkOra ClckwrkOra is offline
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Default Re: Who would win in a fight, a 20 year old woman or a 14 year old boy?

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Originally Posted by del [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Studies generally show that women have greater fatigue resistance at lower intensity exercise, as examples like this show. However, that advantage decreases as the intensity of the exertion increases (see the graph in [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]). Wrestling or fighting is much higher intensity than long distance swimming or running. So, in a fight between a female and a male, fatigue resistance would not come to the rescue of the female. She would have to win by some combination of strength, speed, skill, conditioning and determination.


Men's muscles are better at short, powerful movements. So he clearly will have more power out of the gate: [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

But the longer the fight goes on, the more advantage the woman's body gives her.

That's because data to date indicate that women are more resistant to muscle fatigue during long efforts: [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

Yes, the guy's larger muscles have faster-contracting fibers, thus giving him more to throw behind an initial burst of punches, say.

But if he doesn't win quick that way, she will have more endurance, especially if she's executing skill-based attacks, such as with freestyle wrestling or jiu-jitsu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiminy [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Another recent article you might be interested in:

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Cool. Thanks for thinking of me.
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  #27  
Old 03-Jan-19, 21:30
del del is offline
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Default Re: Who would win in a fight, a 20 year old woman or a 14 year old boy?

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Originally Posted by ClckwrkOra [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Men's muscles are better at short, powerful movements. So he clearly will have more power out of the gate: [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
If we're talking 14 year old boy vs 20 year old woman, he may or may not have more power. It depends on where he is in his growth spurt and puberty and on how much she trains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClckwrkOra [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
That's because data to date indicate that women are more resistant to muscle fatigue during long efforts: [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
As I pointed out, it is more complicated. For less intense exertion, women are more resistant to muscle fatigue. As they approach maximum exertion, women's advantage in this area fades away: [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]. Therefore, if she is going all out, her female body does not give her that advantage.

And as you, I and several others have observed, skill and "the fight in the dog" are important, probably more so than differences in strength and endurance.
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  #28  
Old 04-Jan-19, 00:32
ClckwrkOra ClckwrkOra is offline
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Default Re: Who would win in a fight, a 20 year old woman or a 14 year old boy?

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Originally Posted by del [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
If we're talking 14 year old boy vs 20 year old woman, he may or may not have more power. It depends on where he is in his growth spurt and puberty and on how much she trains.



As I pointed out, it is more complicated. For less intense exertion, women are more resistant to muscle fatigue. As they approach maximum exertion, women's advantage in this area fades away: [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]. Therefore, if she is going all out, her female body does not give her that advantage.

And as you, I and several others have observed, skill and "the fight in the dog" are important, probably more so than differences in strength and endurance.


You’re assuming both people are going all-out the full time. Whether in fistfights or combat sports like Muay Thai or jiu-jitsu, that seldom is the case.

The 2001 study you linked to suggests that women have fatigue resistance over men in some muscle groups at nearly 80 percent of maximum contraction. Examples include knee extensors and elbow flexors.

Women’s fatigue resistance extends to three minutes of intermittent maximum-level contractions of elbow flexors, your study shows.

Men have more strength and explosiveness. As the 2014 study I linked to shows, the issue for them comes in sustained exercise, where they have to contract muscles repeatedly or for long periods of time.

On one type of intermittent, isometric arm contraction, it took nearly three times longer for women to hit muscle fatigue (23.5 minutes versus 8.6 minutes).

As I said before, a guy will have more potential power out of the gate in throwing punches as fast as he can.

But if he doesn’t finish her that way, her endurance advantage will grow the longer the fight goes.

This is especially true for types of combat that don’t require strength, such as jiu-jitsu.
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  #29  
Old 04-Jan-19, 05:01
del del is offline
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Default Re: Who would win in a fight, a 20 year old woman or a 14 year old boy?

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Originally Posted by ClckwrkOra [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
On one type of intermittent, isometric arm contraction, it took nearly three times longer for women to hit muscle fatigue (23.5 minutes versus 8.6 minutes).

As I said before, a guy will have more potential power out of the gate in throwing punches as fast as he can.

But if he doesn’t finish her that way, her endurance advantage will grow the longer the fight goes.

This is especially true for types of combat that don’t require strength, such as jiu-jitsu.
I still say that if it is a 14 year old boy, he could be a little Mike Tyson, or he may not be far enough along in puberty to have more "power out of the gate" than a fit 20 year old woman. Taking your statistic as representative, if the fight goes on as long as 9 minutes, then he would be in even bigger trouble. Of course, his blows could have damaged his opponent more than hers damaged him, in which case she is still in trouble. There are too many variables here to simply rely on generalizations about strength and fatigue in adult men and women.

Last edited by del; 04-Jan-19 at 13:09.
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  #30  
Old 04-Jan-19, 13:08
ClckwrkOra ClckwrkOra is offline
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Default Re: Who would win in a fight, a 20 year old woman or a 14 year old boy?

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Originally Posted by del [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
I still say that if it is a 14 year old boy, he could be a little Mike Tyson, or he may not be far enough along in puberty to have more "power out of the gate" than a fit 20 year old woman. Taking your statistic as representative, if the fight goes on as long as 9 minutes, then he would be in even bigger trouble. Or he could be a little Mike Tyson. Of course, his blows could have damaged his opponent more than hers damaged him, in which case she is still in trouble. There are too many variables here to simply rely on generalizations about strength and fatigue in adult men and women.

I was using numbers from your study, which examined men and women.

If you have numbers comparing teen boys and adult women, I'm happy to look at those.

I'm not saying fatigue resistance alone determines anything.

My only point is that, other things being equal, fatigue resistance is more likely to work to the woman's advantage as a battle lengthens.
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