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  #11  
Old 15-Jul-17, 09:53
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Default Re: Did Nunes duck Shevchenko?

Amanda Nunes' coach, Din Thomas on pulling out from UFC 213 main event vs Valentina Shevchenko: this is unrecoverable.
From UFC Unfiltered with Matt Serra and Jim Norton (7/11/17)

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  #12  
Old 15-Jul-17, 11:34
al89 al89 is offline
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Default Re: Did Nunes duck Shevchenko?

Like Chael Sonnen said (not his fan but he is right on this one), combat sports are about proving who is tougher at a specific date that both fighters agree on beforehand and if on that day you're not tough enough to even come out of the locker room you should lose automatically. It should count as a forfeit, just like in pretty much any other sport.

Fighters who pull out are either mentally weak or deliberately ducking. There is never a valid excuse for pulling out of a high profile fight, period. Fighters constantly go in the ring/octagon with injuries, in fact, there is hardly ever a fight where both fighters are 100%.

People should understand that fighting isn't just what happens in the ring/octagon at a particular night but the entire mental and physical preparation behind it. Like Ali said, fights are won or lost long before you dance under those lights. That includes training in the gym as well. If a professional fighter can't prepare himself/herself to be physically and mentally fit for the day of the fight then they're simply weaker than their opponent. That's why fighters who pull out because of injuries shouldn't be given a pass either.

The thing is that this is prizefighting and there is a lot of money on the line and cancelling an event is a huge financial hit as well for everyone involved. The fans, the promoters, the networks, the opponent... This isn't like pulling out of some mickey mouse amateur tournament. The entire sport loses credibility.

Fighters fight only once or twice a year, literally the only thing they have to do is to show up on a particular day and that's their only job for 6 months. If they can't even do that then they're simply not real professionals.

Nunes has always been a mentally weak fighter who either finishes the fight in the first round or starts to fade and fold mentally as the fight progresses. It doesn't surprise me that a fighter like that would pull out of a fight. She was visibly frustrated and afraid of Valentina Shevchenko and knew that she would get a real beating this time.

Last edited by al89; 15-Jul-17 at 11:39.
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  #13  
Old 15-Jul-17, 15:46
al89 al89 is offline
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Default Re: Did Nunes duck Shevchenko?

MMA is the only sport where some fans give you a pass for what Amanda did.

If an Olympic gold medalist doesn't go to the next Olympics because he/she gets injured or just doesn't feel like it he/she is no longer a defending Olympic gold medalist, if you don't show up to the Wimbledon final because you had a sore throat it's a forfeit and the other person wins, if Barcelona would not show up for a game because Messi was injured and half of the team was sick the other team would win by default etc. yet in MMA a champion can pull out hours before the event with some BS story that can't even be confirmed and she keeps the belt and is somehow still a champion... That's just ridiculous.

In boxing there are much less fights cancelled because the fans are more ruthless to the guys who pull out (and rightfully so), HW boxer David Haye lost most of his fans after he pulled out twice against Tyson Fury and Haye is a guy who fought Klitschko with a broken toe and fought Bellew with a snapped achilles recently and he's still seen as weak because he pulled out in the past. It would be a career suicide for a boxer to do what Nunes did, I don't think that person would have a single fan left afterwards. In the UFC however it has somehow become normal that every 3rd card collapses because of fighters pulling out. This is because the fans have been so symphatetic to this phenomenon and the fighters have started to abuse this and now pull out all the time with some BS stories. People who defend fighters who pull out of fights are harming the sport of MMA!

I train combat sports and I know guys who went to fight with nasty injuries and there wasn't any big money involved at all. Yet these professionals and "world champions" can't show up for a high profile PPV? Pretty much everyone goes in the ring/octagon with some sort of problem, yet there are fighters who always show up and there are fighters who routinely pull out so it's clear that the latter have some mental problem, if it was just the nature of the sport everyone would pull out from time to time. I'm not his fan but Conor McGregor is one of the fighters who know how the game works and is always ready on fight night. He also always made weight.

Added after 9 minutes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Corner Man [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
That makes me recall the "No Mas" fight with Roberto Duran, arguably one of the best fighters that ever lived. Duran threw in the towel while he was fighting Sugar Ray Leonard due to the fact that he had a stomachache. Very controversial at the time.
This was a totally different thing.

Duran beat SRL in one of the single-best wins in the history of boxing in what's know as "the brawl in Montreal". He moved up to WW (147 lbs) and beat the slick fighter SRL by provoking him into a brawl and forcing his style of fighting on him. He also got SRL scared and angry in the build up to the fight by behaving like a psycho and insulting his wife.

The rematch half a year later (the "no mas" fight in New Orleans) was a different story though because Duran got fat after his big win and partied all the time. He was rushed to a rematch by promoters who offered big money for that fight. He wasn't prepared physically and mentally for the fight. SRL on the other hand decided to not bother with Duran's mind games and fought defensively, employing footwork and clowning Duran from range, frustrating him. In the 8th round Duran felt that he wasn't going to win this fight and quit. It was a culmination of him not wanting that fight in the first place, getting overweight and having a bad weight cut and SRL being elusive and clowning him, openly taunting him in the ring and dancing around him, refusing to engage in exchanges (here's a video of his clowning and Duran subsequently saying "no mas": [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] ).

After his disgraceful performance the fans turned on Duran, even in his home country of Panama. That's why he brought excuses about having cramps as damage control. The only reason why he is respected today is because the rest of his legacy is so good, but no one defends his "no mas" actions.

Still, even this no mas thing was better than what Nunes did because Duran at least showed up and boxed for 8 rounds, even winning some of them.

In MMA, fighters don't say "no mas" or throw in the towel, if a fighter wants to quit he gives up his neck for RNC and taps out like Conor vs Nate 1 or Rumble's losses so that it doesn't look so obvious that they quit.

Last edited by al89; 15-Jul-17 at 15:46.
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  #14  
Old 15-Jul-17, 17:46
The Corner Man The Corner Man is offline
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Default Re: Did Nunes duck Shevchenko?

Quote:
Originally Posted by al89 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
MMA is the only sport where some fans give you a pass for what Amanda did.

If an Olympic gold medalist doesn't go to the next Olympics because he/she gets injured or just doesn't feel like it he/she is no longer a defending Olympic gold medalist, if you don't show up to the Wimbledon final because you had a sore throat it's a forfeit and the other person wins, if Barcelona would not show up for a game because Messi was injured and half of the team was sick the other team would win by default etc. yet in MMA a champion can pull out hours before the event with some BS story that can't even be confirmed and she keeps the belt and is somehow still a champion... That's just ridiculous.

In boxing there are much less fights cancelled because the fans are more ruthless to the guys who pull out (and rightfully so), HW boxer David Haye lost most of his fans after he pulled out twice against Tyson Fury and Haye is a guy who fought Klitschko with a broken toe and fought Bellew with a snapped achilles recently and he's still seen as weak because he pulled out in the past. It would be a career suicide for a boxer to do what Nunes did, I don't think that person would have a single fan left afterwards. In the UFC however it has somehow become normal that every 3rd card collapses because of fighters pulling out. This is because the fans have been so symphatetic to this phenomenon and the fighters have started to abuse this and now pull out all the time with some BS stories. People who defend fighters who pull out of fights are harming the sport of MMA!

I train combat sports and I know guys who went to fight with nasty injuries and there wasn't any big money involved at all. Yet these professionals and "world champions" can't show up for a high profile PPV? Pretty much everyone goes in the ring/octagon with some sort of problem, yet there are fighters who always show up and there are fighters who routinely pull out so it's clear that the latter have some mental problem, if it was just the nature of the sport everyone would pull out from time to time. I'm not his fan but Conor McGregor is one of the fighters who know how the game works and is always ready on fight night. He also always made weight.

Added after 9 minutes:



This was a totally different thing.

Duran beat SRL in one of the single-best wins in the history of boxing in what's know as "the brawl in Montreal". He moved up to WW (147 lbs) and beat the slick fighter SRL by provoking him into a brawl and forcing his style of fighting on him. He also got SRL scared and angry in the build up to the fight by behaving like a psycho and insulting his wife.

The rematch half a year later (the "no mas" fight in New Orleans) was a different story though because Duran got fat after his big win and partied all the time. He was rushed to a rematch by promoters who offered big money for that fight. He wasn't prepared physically and mentally for the fight. SRL on the other hand decided to not bother with Duran's mind games and fought defensively, employing footwork and clowning Duran from range, frustrating him. In the 8th round Duran felt that he wasn't going to win this fight and quit. It was a culmination of him not wanting that fight in the first place, getting overweight and having a bad weight cut and SRL being elusive and clowning him, openly taunting him in the ring and dancing around him, refusing to engage in exchanges (here's a video of his clowning and Duran subsequently saying "no mas": [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] ).

After his disgraceful performance the fans turned on Duran, even in his home country of Panama. That's why he brought excuses about having cramps as damage control. The only reason why he is respected today is because the rest of his legacy is so good, but no one defends his "no mas" actions.

Still, even this no mas thing was better than what Nunes did because Duran at least showed up and boxed for 8 rounds, even winning some of them.

In MMA, fighters don't say "no mas" or throw in the towel, if a fighter wants to quit he gives up his neck for RNC and taps out like Conor vs Nate 1 or Rumble's losses so that it doesn't look so obvious that they quit.
Amen. In any other sport, you LOSE regardless of the excuse. MMA is turning into a circus act.
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  #15  
Old 16-Jul-17, 20:35
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Default Re: Did Nunes duck Shevchenko?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Corner Man [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Amen. In any other sport, you LOSE regardless of the excuse. MMA is turning into a circus act.
I'm not only a huge Shevchenko fan, she's my favourite fighter, period. I love how calm, centered and grounded she is. She's a true pro, through and through. Nunes has never been a favourite, even though I have great respect for her as a fighter. The question I have is more "big picture". Like everyone, I was terribly disappointed not to be able to see the fight. I know some fans defended her but I assume that Nunes is their girl and they'd go to bat for her no matter what. But there was no shortage of hate for her afterwards. She may have permanently damaged her relationship with the UFC or at least with Dana White. Still, what were they to do?

As White himself has said, you can't "make" someone fight. Some people have said she should have been stripped of the belt. Well, ok....what then? You can't just hand it to Shevchenko and say, "OK, you're the champ now." Besides, I very much doubt Valentina would even want to get a belt that way. So what happens then, you try to figure out who makes sense for Shevchenko to fight for the belt?

I mean, I just don't see, if you're the UFC, what taking the title from Nunes does for you as an organization. It would just throw the entire division into chaos and with the 145 debacle just beginning to get straightened out, do they really need another mess to sort out. Again, I don't like Nunes, I'm angry at her for wrecking the fight and I feel not the slightest compulsion to make excuses for her. I just don't see what good it would do to take the title from her.
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  #16  
Old 16-Jul-17, 22:45
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Default Re: Did Nunes duck Shevchenko?

Somebody defends Amanda:

Amanda Nunes withdrawl explained
Frank Pozen
Sunday, July 09, 2017

As you all know by now, Amanda Nunes pulled out of last night's title defense against Valentina Shevchenko. Since then, Amanda has been thrown under the bus by everyone including UFC president Dana White who has himself been accused of unprofessional behaviour in the past. One would think he would know better. He went so far as to say that he thought Amanda's withdrawal was 90% mental. He did say the fight is likely to be rescheduled to UFC 215 in Edmonton. I have a theory about why Amanda pulled out that I was going to write about anyway. But I now have an official explanation from American Top Team owner and head coach Conan Silveira. Silveira told UOL in Brazil that Amanda was suffering from a sinus infection, a sore throat and she wasn't sleeping properly. Amanda has suffered from sinus infections in the past. Silveira says the problems developed during the week and as White said, they considered pulling out before the ceremonial weigh ins. When Amanda's condition hadn't improved on Saturday morning, that's when they took her to the hospital. Silveira said this was a team decision made by himself, Amanda and coaches Mike Brown and Din Thomas. Of course there are two sides to this. There are those who claim that no fighter is 100% and most of them suck it up and fight anyway. And how many times have you watched a fight where the losing fighter didn't look right. Afterwards, we learn the fighter had the flu and sucked it up and regretted it. This happened to Amanda Nunes when she lost to Sarah D'Alelio on the Jan. 5, 2015 Invicta show. If you recall, she didn't look right during that fight. We found out later that she was ill and she probably shouldn't have fought. This was before she moved to ATT. So maybe she decided that in the future she would only fight if she was 100% healthy. Silveira says that if she's not 100% healthy, she doesn't have to take unnecessary risks. He says the camp went great. But she wasn't feeling well and she wasn't improving. The team decided to pull out. I see no indication that there were weight cut problems which was the kneejerk conclusion most jumped to. BTW, Amanda has never had problems cutting weight and I have covered her career since 2010. If she would have fought last night and lost, they have an excuse. We see enough of that nonsense already. Post match excuses drive me nuts. Look, I know Silveira's explanation isn't going to satisfy some. I would prefer that Amanda fought in perfect health so there are no excuses. So I'm OK with it. Reschedule the fight.
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Old 18-Jul-17, 02:29
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Default Re: Did Nunes duck Shevchenko?

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Originally Posted by brooksie [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Some people have said she should have been stripped of the belt. Well, ok....what then? You can't just hand it to Shevchenko and say, "OK, you're the champ now." Besides, I very much doubt Valentina would even want to get a belt that way.
That's not how it works. When a fighter is stripped of a title, then the title is vacant until someone else wins the title in a fight.

Quote:
So what happens then, you try to figure out who makes sense for Shevchenko to fight for the belt?
UFC does a pretty good job with its rankings. Even if the title were vacated today, Valentina would still be the #1 contender and Holly, Amanda, or Julianna would be #2. And if Amanda were to be stripped (which is not going to happen, I'm merely humoring you on the question), that would potentially open the door for Ronda to return vs one of the other women.

Quote:
It would just throw the entire division into chaos
Excitement and controversy sell PPVs.

Quote:
and with the 145 debacle just beginning to get straightened out
Much ado about nothing. There are/is what, 3, I mean 2, no wait...1 fighter in that division?

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Originally Posted by stymie [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Somebody defends Amanda:

Silveira told UOL in Brazil that Amanda was suffering from a sinus infection, a sore throat and she wasn't sleeping properly. Amanda has suffered from sinus infections in the past.
If she had a severe head cold or the flu, then yeah, pull out. Fans who paid for the fight have every right to be pissed at her for not being healthy. The rest of us, though? Meh. I'm disappointed and I think it hurts her image (which was not really great to begin with) but if she was legitimately sick, I cannot really fault her for backing out.
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Old 18-Jul-17, 18:09
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Default Re: Did Nunes duck Shevchenko?

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Old 18-Jul-17, 19:18
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Default Re: Did Nunes duck Shevchenko?

<<That's not how it works. When a fighter is stripped of a title, then the title is vacant until someone else wins the title in a fight>>

I understand that. It was more of a rhetorical question, aimed at the number of people online who said that Shevchenko SHOULD have been given the belt. I'm aware they wouldn't have done that.

<<UFC does a pretty good job with its rankings. Even if the title were vacated today, Valentina would still be the #1 contender and Holly, Amanda, or Julianna would be #2. And if Amanda were to be stripped (which is not going to happen, I'm merely humoring you on the question), that would potentially open the door for Ronda to return vs one of the other women.>>

I wasn't suggesting it would happen. In fact, as I indicated, I don't believe it would. I was responding to that idea that a few people floated online.

<<Much ado about nothing. There are/is what, 3, I mean 2, no wait...1 fighter in that division?>>

Exactly. It was the "no-division" division. Not a single commentator in all of MMA had anything good to say about the way the UFC handled that so what I was suggesting is the last thing the UFC would want is more bad publicity around a female division.

I think we basically agree that, regardless of the details of the sinus problem and how culpable Nunes was, stripping the belt was never a serious consideration. I think a lot of people were just venting. I was pretty upset too but now that the fight's been re-booked in Edmonton, I'm actually going to get to see it live. I'm pretty excited about that.
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