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Is SGP really effective?
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Moved this discussion from Fight Pulse topic to a separate thread. Z Quote:
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Re: Fight Pulse
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Plus, he's right. In real wrestling you don't see SGP or SBP's because they are largely ineffective. But I also agree with you in the sense that they are a staple of fetish wrestling along with another hold we now know to be mostly bogus as a submission hold, the Double-leg Grapevine. The SGP's I've liked the best usually come at the end of a match or a fall, when the loser is just too tired to try to escape. |
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#5
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Re: Fight Pulse
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I like to see it happening and that's all. In any case, I've got hundreds of real life SGPins videos, so you might be talking with a bit too much finality. Good wrestlers don't get SGPinned? False, I have real MMA videos where it happens. But I really don't feel like starting some sort of diatribe here, as I'm sure Zweig has other uses in mind for this topic. I just wanted to answer once and I'll not do it twice. To each his own and peace. |
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#6
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Re: Fight Pulse
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As for my opinion about his opinion and your opinion that it wasn't an opinion...ow, my head is starting to hurt. I just meant I don't think he was deliberately being mean or provocative, I think he believes it to be true. "The Grapevine Hold" was the thread title in which that hold was discussed. I started it because I was intrigued. There are so many depictions of it as a brutally painful submission hold in fetish, yet when you look at anything competitive, it's nowhere to be found, at least as a submission hold. People seem to disentangle their legs quite easily. But what I have noticed is there are an amazing number of variations on it. Not the hold itself, it's basically the same but the placement and angle of the feet, length of the legs and so on mean that you can see a lot different types of grapevines. I started to wonder is there was "secret" to it. Could it be nearly impossible to escape "if done right". The thread didn't produce anything you could really call a conclusion, but I think there was general agreement, especially after NYCProducer weighed in. |
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Of course everyone is free to like whatever they want. I love the schoolboy pin, even though I know it's as bad as the SGP. I was only ponting out that the lack of sgp's in a video is a good thing because it mean a real fight with at least half descent fighters. That's all |
#8
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Re: Fight Pulse
Before I go on let me say that there is actually a schoolgirl pin in FW-27.
SGPs do happen in competitive fights with skilled opponents. It can be an effective immobilization hold if applied properly. Now, in order to pin the shoulders down to the count of ten, as per Fight Pulse rules, it takes more than that. There has to be one of two factors - either a big skill gap between opponents (see Diana's judo-gi pins only matches against Xena and Joseph, where she pins them down to the count of 10 effortlessly despite their best effort multiple amount of times), or there has to be exhaustion. OK, let me expand on this. Generally speaking, high-mount is a very dominant position. Everybody gets excited when it happens in a fight because it is such a dominant position. I have seen countless MMA fights end with a high-mount and ground and pound. It is very difficult to dislodge somebody who knows how to pin you down, unless you have a couple of advanced jiu-jitsu tricks up your sleeve, and your opponent doesn't, in order to escape the mount and NOT give your back. It also requires heart and determination, since you WILL get hit while doing the escape. This is true even in a championship-level fight. In the last UFC middleweight championship fight between Luke Rockhold and Chris Weidman, Luke, who was the underdog, displayed superior grappling skills, which came as a surprise to many. Once he got the full mount, he was first straddling the hips, then moved to high-mount and ground and pound. It was one of the most brutal rounds in UFC history. Chris, the champion, who is a high-level wrestler, could not dismount Luke until the round ended. He eventually lost the fight, and the title. Now, as I said, high-mount and schoolgirl pin are a little different, but the dynamic is similar. If the goal is to keep your opponent on their back, this is easily one of the most widely used immobilization holds in martial arts. You have a huge amount of this in Judo, sambo, jiu-jitsu. Schoolgirl pin is more difficult, since it is about keeping the shoulders down to the count of 10 (or 5 with some producers). But it is possible in a competitive setting, especially if the person on top is good at it - at balancing their weight on the opponent's chest / stomach, and avoiding escape attempts. Add to that some skill gap and exhaustion, and schoolgirl pin becomes common. As to the grapevine, both double and single-leg, it is an effective hold to keep an opponent on their back. It is very common in amateur wrestling. Skilled wrestlers do get their shoulders pinned down this way. But, if we are talking about submitting someone with a grapevine, it is a bit more difficult. It requires that the person who is submitting does not have a trained / strong / flexible body. If you generally have a strong and flexible body, even without wrestling training, you can withstand the pain of the double-leg grapevine pin. The pain is still there as your body is stretched in a very unusual way, especially when the opponent on top has stronger legs, and generally a strong body. The pain is not only on the legs, but also on the lower ribs, as your ribcage elevates due to total body stretch. Ribs have been bruised by double-leg grapevine. It is a painful hold, guys, but, as I said, it depends on the victim. Average person with no training, with average body-strength, and with average flexibility, WILL get submitted, man or woman, if the hold is applied properly by a strong person of either sex. The goal of the videos that I produce is not to show who is the best wrestler in the world, but to show the subjugation of one person, and dominance of another - conquest of one by the other. Power-play is the key element. The reason schoolgirl pin and other pins and scissor variations are popular in our niche is because they show this power-play better than any other holds. This is also the reason why there is such a demand in victory poses. In my mind mixed wrestling and female wrestling are sub-categories of Femdom. And in my experience this is so for the majority of people who are into it. Although I know this is not universal. This is also the reason why, if I want to film or watch an F/F match, I prefer amateurs to high-level grapplers. There is less power-play involved in a match between the latter. The emotions are controlled, since not much surprises any of the opponents. You also get to see less dominant holds. That's why I am not a huge fan of WMMA. It's just not sexy to me most of the time. I do watch it, but mostly for triangle holds, high-mount pins, facekicks, and occasional reverse-facesit in a north-south position . Also because I admire strong confident female fighters / wrestlers. But [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] is still my favorite WMMA match of all-time, for example, because of the headscissors KO. The referee, of course, has no clue how to identify a knock-out position. That being said, I also think that the ruleset that we have at Fight Pulse is legit. I think the effectiveness of scissor holds are underestimated by the martial arts community, both in positional fighting, and in achieving submissions. I have been planning to make a championship under this ruleset for a while now. Our rules are pretty close to that of DWW, but are more defined. Although there's still work to do before any championship can be held under these rules.
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#9
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I never argued against the existence of SGP in our fetish videos. My only problem are those people who are so desparate to fool themselves into believing that what they see in such videos is highly skilled wrestling, which is not, even if it's fully competitive. That being said, both Akela and Jane look amazing and I can't wait to see them in comp. f/m matches. |
#10
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Re: Fight Pulse
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A schoolgirl pin is an effective tool, and it does happen in competitive fights. By skilled I mean exactly Petra and Axa Jay level wrestlers. It might not happen to a world-class Judoka, but it does happen at underground wrestling-level matches. As I said, add a little skill gap / size difference / exhaustion, it becomes pretty common, thankfully. I have seen lots of schoolgirl pins in competitive F/F matches, and I have filmed a few. Quote:
Anyway, the bottom line of what I wrote in that paragraph is that mounting is an effective immobilization technique and a transitional position. This is true for Judo, Jiu-Jitsu, and, of course, MMA. If you want to continue this discussion, guys, we need to do two things. First of all, we need to move this discussion to a separate thread. And secondly, we need to agree on which type of schoolgirl pin we are talking about. Some are listed here - [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] Quote:
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