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  #1  
Old 28-Jan-16, 20:29
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Njordin Njordin is offline
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Lightbulb Is SGP really effective?

Edit:
Moved this discussion from Fight Pulse topic to a separate thread.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAller [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Doesn't seem like a very SGPinnish match. What a pity, they both look great
Fortunately, no, it doesn't. Holding down any descent wrestler with SGP is impossible and videos who include them are either staged or the person pinned is horrible at wrestling.
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Old 28-Jan-16, 21:36
ger8 ger8 is offline
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Default Re: Fight Pulse

Quote:
Originally Posted by Njordin [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Fortunately, no, it doesn't. Holding down any descent wrestler with SGP is impossible and videos who include them are either staged or the person pinned is horrible at wrestling.
Geez, God has spoken! Personally I like videos with SGP. Different strokes for different folks. Right? I disagree with your diatribe on SGP's also. Zweig, would you like to weigh in?
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Old 28-Jan-16, 21:55
brooksie brooksie is offline
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Default Re: Fight Pulse

Quote:
Originally Posted by ger8 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Geez, God has spoken! Personally I like videos with SGP. Different strokes for different folks. Right? I disagree with your diatribe on SGP's also. Zweig, would you like to weigh in?
Not really a diatribe, more of an opinion, in my opinion.

Plus, he's right. In real wrestling you don't see SGP or SBP's because they are largely ineffective. But I also agree with you in the sense that they are a staple of fetish wrestling along with another hold we now know to be mostly bogus as a submission hold, the Double-leg Grapevine. The SGP's I've liked the best usually come at the end of a match or a fall, when the loser is just too tired to try to escape.
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Old 28-Jan-16, 22:06
ger8 ger8 is offline
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Default Re: Fight Pulse

Quote:
Originally Posted by brooksie [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Not really a diatribe, more of an opinion, in my opinion.

Plus, he's right. In real wrestling you don't see SGP or SBP's because they are largely ineffective. But I also agree with you in the sense that they are a staple of fetish wrestling along with another hold we now know to be mostly bogus as a submission hold, the Double-leg Grapevine. The SGP's I've liked the best usually come at the end of a match or a fall, when the loser is just too tired to try to escape.
Sorry Brooksie but it doesn't read like an opinion to me. I still disagree. I've been on the receiving end of a grapevine and if done correctly, it feels like your ankles are breaking and leg muscles are being ripped. Personally, I think matches with all submissions and mostly scissors are pretty boring. Zweig does competitive matches and SGP's are a part of that.
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Old 28-Jan-16, 22:52
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Default Re: Fight Pulse

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Originally Posted by Njordin [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Fortunately, no, it doesn't. Holding down any descent wrestler with SGP is impossible and videos who include them are either staged or the person pinned is horrible at wrestling.
I couldn't care less.

I like to see it happening and that's all.

In any case, I've got hundreds of real life SGPins videos, so you might be talking with a bit too much finality. Good wrestlers don't get SGPinned? False, I have real MMA videos where it happens.

But I really don't feel like starting some sort of diatribe here, as I'm sure Zweig has other uses in mind for this topic. I just wanted to answer once and I'll not do it twice.

To each his own and peace.
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Old 28-Jan-16, 23:03
brooksie brooksie is offline
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Default Re: Fight Pulse

Quote:
Originally Posted by ger8 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Sorry Brooksie but it doesn't read like an opinion to me. I still disagree. I've been on the receiving end of a grapevine and if done correctly, it feels like your ankles are breaking and leg muscles are being ripped. Personally, I think matches with all submissions and mostly scissors are pretty boring. Zweig does competitive matches and SGP's are a part of that.
I know you've read some of my reviews so you're probably aware I'm in full agreement about the scissor-only thing. "Drowning in a sea of scissors" was, I think, how I put it in one review.

As for my opinion about his opinion and your opinion that it wasn't an opinion...ow, my head is starting to hurt. I just meant I don't think he was deliberately being mean or provocative, I think he believes it to be true.

"The Grapevine Hold" was the thread title in which that hold was discussed. I started it because I was intrigued. There are so many depictions of it as a brutally painful submission hold in fetish, yet when you look at anything competitive, it's nowhere to be found, at least as a submission hold. People seem to disentangle their legs quite easily.

But what I have noticed is there are an amazing number of variations on it. Not the hold itself, it's basically the same but the placement and angle of the feet, length of the legs and so on mean that you can see a lot different types of grapevines. I started to wonder is there was "secret" to it. Could it be nearly impossible to escape "if done right".

The thread didn't produce anything you could really call a conclusion, but I think there was general agreement, especially after NYCProducer weighed in.
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  #7  
Old 28-Jan-16, 23:52
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Default Re: Fight Pulse

Quote:
Originally Posted by ger8 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
I've been on the receiving end of a grapevine and if done correctly, it feels like your ankles are breaking and leg muscles are being ripped.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooksie [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
"The Grapevine Hold" was the thread title in which that hold was discussed. I started it because I was intrigued. There are so many depictions of it as a brutally painful submission hold in fetish, yet when you look at anything competitive, it's nowhere to be found, at least as a submission hold. People seem to disentangle their legs quite easily.
The grapevine hold is a small variation of a legit pin in Judo (called tate shiho gatame) and in theory it can work but it's extremely rare. Personaly, I have never been pinned to this for more than a couple of seconds and I have never seen anyone getting pinned to this, either in my dojo or at a tournament. It's just...extremely rare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAller [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
In any case, I've got hundreds of real life SGPins videos, so you might be talking with a bit too much finality. Good wrestlers don't get SGPinned? False, I have real MMA videos where it happens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ger8 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Geez, God has spoken! Personally I like videos with SGP. Different strokes for different folks. Right? I disagree with your diatribe on SGP's also.
SGP is a parody of a pin and it doesn't exist in any form of real wrestling (judo, greco-roman etc) and the reason is simple: you can't pin anyone, who is trained for more that just 2 months, like that. As for the MMA, MMA fighters are more often that not good at one part (striking/ clinch fight-takedowns/ ground wrestling) and mediocre to bad at the others. I've seen MMA fighters being thrown down more effortlessly than a random judo orange belt. I've seen them getting KO'd by a simple judo throw. Don't get me started with MMA...

Of course everyone is free to like whatever they want. I love the schoolboy pin, even though I know it's as bad as the SGP. I was only ponting out that the lack of sgp's in a video is a good thing because it mean a real fight with at least half descent fighters. That's all
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  #8  
Old 29-Jan-16, 14:47
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Default Re: Fight Pulse

Before I go on let me say that there is actually a schoolgirl pin in FW-27.

SGPs do happen in competitive fights with skilled opponents. It can be an effective immobilization hold if applied properly. Now, in order to pin the shoulders down to the count of ten, as per Fight Pulse rules, it takes more than that. There has to be one of two factors - either a big skill gap between opponents (see Diana's judo-gi pins only matches against Xena and Joseph, where she pins them down to the count of 10 effortlessly despite their best effort multiple amount of times), or there has to be exhaustion. OK, let me expand on this.

Generally speaking, high-mount is a very dominant position. Everybody gets excited when it happens in a fight because it is such a dominant position. I have seen countless MMA fights end with a high-mount and ground and pound. It is very difficult to dislodge somebody who knows how to pin you down, unless you have a couple of advanced jiu-jitsu tricks up your sleeve, and your opponent doesn't, in order to escape the mount and NOT give your back. It also requires heart and determination, since you WILL get hit while doing the escape. This is true even in a championship-level fight. In the last UFC middleweight championship fight between Luke Rockhold and Chris Weidman, Luke, who was the underdog, displayed superior grappling skills, which came as a surprise to many. Once he got the full mount, he was first straddling the hips, then moved to high-mount and ground and pound. It was one of the most brutal rounds in UFC history. Chris, the champion, who is a high-level wrestler, could not dismount Luke until the round ended. He eventually lost the fight, and the title.

Now, as I said, high-mount and schoolgirl pin are a little different, but the dynamic is similar. If the goal is to keep your opponent on their back, this is easily one of the most widely used immobilization holds in martial arts. You have a huge amount of this in Judo, sambo, jiu-jitsu. Schoolgirl pin is more difficult, since it is about keeping the shoulders down to the count of 10 (or 5 with some producers). But it is possible in a competitive setting, especially if the person on top is good at it - at balancing their weight on the opponent's chest / stomach, and avoiding escape attempts. Add to that some skill gap and exhaustion, and schoolgirl pin becomes common.

As to the grapevine, both double and single-leg, it is an effective hold to keep an opponent on their back. It is very common in amateur wrestling. Skilled wrestlers do get their shoulders pinned down this way. But, if we are talking about submitting someone with a grapevine, it is a bit more difficult. It requires that the person who is submitting does not have a trained / strong / flexible body. If you generally have a strong and flexible body, even without wrestling training, you can withstand the pain of the double-leg grapevine pin. The pain is still there as your body is stretched in a very unusual way, especially when the opponent on top has stronger legs, and generally a strong body. The pain is not only on the legs, but also on the lower ribs, as your ribcage elevates due to total body stretch. Ribs have been bruised by double-leg grapevine. It is a painful hold, guys, but, as I said, it depends on the victim. Average person with no training, with average body-strength, and with average flexibility, WILL get submitted, man or woman, if the hold is applied properly by a strong person of either sex.

The goal of the videos that I produce is not to show who is the best wrestler in the world, but to show the subjugation of one person, and dominance of another - conquest of one by the other. Power-play is the key element. The reason schoolgirl pin and other pins and scissor variations are popular in our niche is because they show this power-play better than any other holds. This is also the reason why there is such a demand in victory poses. In my mind mixed wrestling and female wrestling are sub-categories of Femdom. And in my experience this is so for the majority of people who are into it. Although I know this is not universal. This is also the reason why, if I want to film or watch an F/F match, I prefer amateurs to high-level grapplers. There is less power-play involved in a match between the latter. The emotions are controlled, since not much surprises any of the opponents. You also get to see less dominant holds. That's why I am not a huge fan of WMMA. It's just not sexy to me most of the time. I do watch it, but mostly for triangle holds, high-mount pins, facekicks, and occasional reverse-facesit in a north-south position . Also because I admire strong confident female fighters / wrestlers. But [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] is still my favorite WMMA match of all-time, for example, because of the headscissors KO. The referee, of course, has no clue how to identify a knock-out position.

That being said, I also think that the ruleset that we have at Fight Pulse is legit. I think the effectiveness of scissor holds are underestimated by the martial arts community, both in positional fighting, and in achieving submissions. I have been planning to make a championship under this ruleset for a while now. Our rules are pretty close to that of DWW, but are more defined. Although there's still work to do before any championship can be held under these rules.
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  #9  
Old 29-Jan-16, 17:57
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Default Re: Fight Pulse

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zweig [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
SGPs do happen in competitive fights with skilled opponents
They absolutely don't. I've watched hunderds of judo fights, from simple national tournaments to the world tour and the world championship, not to mention my personal experience, and I've never seen it happen and I'm pretty sure same goes for greco roman and freestyle as well. I challenge you to post a video with a skilled wrestler (no, Petra from DWW and Axa don't count as skilled wrestlers - Kaori Matsumoto and Gezary Matuda do).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zweig [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
I have seen countless MMA fights end with a high-mount and ground and pound.
What does MMA have to do with our discussion ? We are talking about wrestling here. Of course if you are afraid of having your head squashed by punches you are not free to do anything to get off the pin. But there is no striking in wrestling and breaking the sgp is piss easy.

I never argued against the existence of SGP in our fetish videos. My only problem are those people who are so desparate to fool themselves into believing that what they see in such videos is highly skilled wrestling, which is not, even if it's fully competitive.
That being said, both Akela and Jane look amazing and I can't wait to see them in comp. f/m matches.
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Old 29-Jan-16, 18:39
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Default Re: Fight Pulse

Quote:
Originally Posted by Njordin [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
They absolutely don't. I've watched hunderds of judo fights
There are mount pins in Judo. I have seen at least one that involves pinning the opponent's arm with your knee / shin, and I am not a big Judo fan. What you don't see is the variation of schoolgirl pin with two knees on two biceps / shoulders, as it is not very effective indeed, if you want to maintain the pin for the 25-second ippon , as it makes it difficult to balance your weight on top of your opponent. This specific type of pin is also not something taught in Judo.

A schoolgirl pin is an effective tool, and it does happen in competitive fights. By skilled I mean exactly Petra and Axa Jay level wrestlers. It might not happen to a world-class Judoka, but it does happen at underground wrestling-level matches. As I said, add a little skill gap / size difference / exhaustion, it becomes pretty common, thankfully. I have seen lots of schoolgirl pins in competitive F/F matches, and I have filmed a few.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Njordin [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
What does MMA have to do with our discussion ? We are talking about wrestling here. Of course if you are afraid of having your head squashed by punches you are not free to do anything to get off the pin. But there is no striking in wrestling and breaking the sgp is piss easy.
One might think that getting your head pounded would give you extra incentive to dislodge the person on top. Are you saying Chris Weidman, a highly successful wrestler, couldn't get Luke Rockhold off of him because he was afraid of taking punches? He took an enormous amount of punches. He is actually one of the best in taking punches. The guy has a tremendous heart. And this is only one fight we are talking about.
Anyway, the bottom line of what I wrote in that paragraph is that mounting is an effective immobilization technique and a transitional position. This is true for Judo, Jiu-Jitsu, and, of course, MMA.

If you want to continue this discussion, guys, we need to do two things. First of all, we need to move this discussion to a separate thread. And secondly, we need to agree on which type of schoolgirl pin we are talking about. Some are listed here - [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

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Originally Posted by Njordin [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
That being said, both Akela and Jane look amazing and I can't wait to see them in comp. f/m matches.
Coming soon - check out our new [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] page for the date.
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