How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

[garcon55]

Originally Posted by del [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

1-2% is not extremely uncommon. In pre-covid days working on a college campus, I encountered more than a hundred women a day. 1-2 of them might have been above the male average in upper body strength.

Green is hard to read in that chart. If you look closely, then you will find there are several green circles above the male average.

In answer to the question in this thread, it is 100% realistic to conceive of a woman being stronger than a man. It is, as we all agree, far from the norm, but it is not not extremely rare either.

No if you look closely, you see only one woman being above the average between 20 and 40 years old. And there are much more than 100 mesured data points in this range. Might be in the 0.4-0.1% range

Here another measurement from another study showing similar results.


No woman in the average male range, the strongest women are in the lowest 10% male area. In the 20/40 years old range, almost all males are stronger than all women.
Differences between the sexes are huge in this case.

[80sports]

Truthfully, if an average young adult to middle age man is really trying, they would rarely lose.

Most of us enjoy the fantasy of being beaten up by these women, so we overplay how strong they are. Some of these women certainly are strong as heck and have great fighting skills, but if most men were in a "survival" fight (with their lives or family's lives on the line), many would be able to beat the majority of these women.

No disrespect by this. I also frequently talk about (in fantasy terms) how most of these women would completely dominate me. Although, deep down, I don't fully believe these. I will admit there are rare exceptions, but none of these women would last a second with any of the strongest NFL players.

[Elbow Escape]

Originally Posted by 80sports [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

Truthfully, if an average young adult to middle age man is really trying, they would rarely lose.

Most of us enjoy the fantasy of being beaten up by these women, so we overplay how strong they are. Some of these women certainly are strong as heck and have great fighting skills, but if most men were in a "survival" fight (with their lives or family's lives on the line), many would be able to beat the majority of these women.

No disrespect by this. I also frequently talk about (in fantasy terms) how most of these women would completely dominate me. Although, deep down, I don't fully believe these. I will admit there are rare exceptions, but none of these women would last a second with any of the strongest NFL players.

Any decently strong woman with good (not great) fighting skills would completely destroy the average untrained man, and they are not rare exceptions, you can easily find at least one in most MMA or BJJ schools.
I'm not saying the man would not likely be much stronger pyshically, but it's not the point, if you have good grappling technique you can easily submit a much stronger opponent who doesn't know how to stop it.
If you have both grappling and striking technique it become even easier.

Despite what most people like to think to feel safer being in a life or death scenario don't make you a better fighter if you have no idea how to fight, as a matter of fact it make you worse since you would not be thinking straight at all, panic under pressure and do even more dumb shit that a trained fighter can counter even more easily.
Having a calm and lucid mind when the opponent hasn't is an huge advantage, and the more you have training the more you would be able to remain rational and effective even when the stakes are high.

I agree that no women fighter could beat the strongest NFL players (with myabe the exception of 220 lbs + outliers like Gabi Garcia or Tayanne Porfirio), but how did we went from average men to top nfl players?

They are the absolute 0,00000001% top of human population, the size, strenght, speed and athleticism gap between them and the average men is 10x greater then the one between an average man and an average woman (let alone the gap between an average man and an above average athletic woman who physically exercise, which is even smaller).

As a very general oversimplification:
NFL players > high level female fighters > good amateur female fighters > female fighters during their first or second year of training ~ average untrained men.

[80sports]

Originally Posted by Elbow Escape [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

Any decently strong woman with good (not great) fighting skills would completely destroy the average untrained man, and they are not rare exceptions, you can easily find at least one in most MMA or BJJ schools.
I'm not saying the man would not likely be much stronger pyshically, but it's not the point, if you have good grappling technique you can easily submit a much stronger opponent who doesn't know how to stop it.
If you have both grappling and striking technique it become even easier.

Despite what most people like to think to feel safer being in a life or death scenario don't make you a better fighter if you have no idea how to fight, as a matter of fact it make you worse since you would not be thinking straight at all, panic under pressure and do even more dumb shit that a trained fighter can counter even more easily.
Having a calm and lucid mind when the opponent hasn't is an huge advantage, and the more you have training the more you would be able to remain rational and effective even when the stakes are high.

I agree that no women fighter could beat the strongest NFL players (with myabe the exception of 220 lbs + outliers like Gabi Garcia or Tayanne Porfirio), but how did we went from average men to top nfl players?

They are the absolute 0,00000001% top of human population, the size, strenght, speed and athleticism gap between them and the average men is 10x greater then the one between an average man and an average woman (let alone the gap between an average man and an above average athletic woman who physically exercise, which is even smaller).

As a very general oversimplification:
NFL players > high level female fighters > good amateur female fighters > female fighters during their first or second year of training ~ average untrained men.

I agree. If you are talking about an "untrained" average man, you are correct. Someone like Gina Carrero or Rounda Rousey or other well trained MMA females could likely beat an untrained average male easily. I was conflating a couple of points.

[wer]

Is it about mental or physical strength?
Iron fist was invented by a gong fu master whose daughter was raped by a bunch of thugs.
He beat the living shit out of her every day if she showed but a sliver of weakness, he broke her fists and feet every day with sticks and rocks.
He mauled her until she became a living embodiment of toughness.
He turned his daughter into a living machine of destruction.
He let her loose on her rapists and she found them and beat them into a pulp.
She went and made a name for herself later and than came back to challenge her own father and broke him and took his school and named it the Iron Fist
school. And it still exists today in xiaolin.

How strong do you believe this woman was?
Would you be able to stand against her in an unarmed combat?
Most of men have their brains and/or muscles as useless appendages.
It's how you use them that counts.
This woman has proven her use of both.
She is a superior being.
How are you using your brain and/or muscles?

[ManInBlack]

Which movie is it from?

[jiminy]

Originally Posted by 80sports [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

Truthfully, if an average young adult to middle age man is really trying, they would rarely lose.

Most of us enjoy the fantasy of being beaten up by these women, so we overplay how strong they are. Some of these women certainly are strong as heck and have great fighting skills, but if most men were in a "survival" fight (with their lives or family's lives on the line), many would be able to beat the majority of these women.

No disrespect by this. I also frequently talk about (in fantasy terms) how most of these women would completely dominate me. Although, deep down, I don't fully believe these. I will admit there are rare exceptions, but none of these women would last a second with any of the strongest NFL players.

Depends what you mean by "these women". You realise there is a huge amount of disparity among the female gender, right? Just as there is among males.

Would an average man last very long against the strongest NFL players? Of course not.

If your personal "fantasy" is to get beaten up by a tiny slip of a girl, Ariane Grande for example, dainty and slender - yeah, I could agree that in reality an average man would prevail. Even against bigger girls like Taylor Swift and Jennifer Lawrence, only very runtish, below average males would succumb.

But against a woman that is combat-sports trained, or above average size with athleticism and runs a consistent strength and conditioning regimen, the task becomes much harder for the average male if not insurmountable due to lack of training and physical conditioning.

Broadly speaking the average man severely overestimates himself. I've seen it many times in commercial gyms; guys getting squashed and injuring themselves under weights they're not strong enough to lift. Likewise they've merely watched a few films and and fights on TV and think it looks easy enough.

Until you've actually got onto the mat or into a ring with someone decently proficient, are you forced to reassess.

[wer]

Funny you should ask.
The story was told to me by a shorinji master who got the story from his japanese master, who got the story from the shorinji founder who must have brought is from xiaolin.
You have the freedom to believe what you want, but just from head.
Cho Gyokko invented Gyokko ryu(bujinkan)
Yim wing chun invented wing chun gong fu.

You have some other on this link here
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[Elbow Escape]

Originally Posted by jiminy [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

Depends what you mean by "these women". You realise there is a huge amount of disparity among the female gender, right? Just as there is among males.

Would an average man last very long against the strongest NFL players? Of course not.

Speaking about NFL players, I was thinking about this old video of a 170 lbs MMA fighter grappling with an huge 300 lbs NFL player (altough not a top one) and submitting him repeatedly rather easily:
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Are we sure that an athletic 150-160 lbs woman (which are rare, but not that rare, and can easily still be very attractive and feminine looking) with strenght and conditioning training and with the same skill level as him, could not do the same thing by using the same techniques? Maybe with more difficulties, but still be able to get the job done?

I'm thinking about the first submission in particular, I can easily see that Failed Takedown > Pulling Deep Half Guard > Leg Lock to a standing opponent sequence work just the same even if executed by a woman.
Probably even with strikes allowed, if done that fast and by timing well the initial takedown attempt to avoid being punched during the shoot.

I would be curious to hear other people's opinion, I'm not sure myself, I just tought it may be interesting to talk about it.

P.S:I know a fit man like him is still going to be much stronger than a fit and athletic woman of comparable size, that's the point of the question, otherwise there would not be any need to ask.

[jiminy]

Originally Posted by Elbow Escape [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

Speaking about NFL players, I was thinking about this old video of a 170 lbs MMA fighter grappling with an huge 300 lbs NFL player (altough not a top one) and submitting him repeatedly rather easily:
[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

Are we sure that an athletic 150-160 lbs woman (which are rare, but not that rare, and can easily still be very attractive and feminine looking) with strenght and conditioning training and with the same skill level as him, could not do the same thing by using the same techniques? Maybe with more difficulties, but still be able to get the job done?

I'm thinking about the first submission in particular, I can easily see that Failed Takedown > Pulling Deep Half Guard > Leg Lock to a standing opponent sequence work just the same even if executed by a woman.
Probably even with strikes allowed, if done that fast and by timing well the initial takedown attempt to avoid being punched during the shoot.

I would be curious to hear other people's opinion, I'm not sure myself, I just tought it may be interesting to talk about it.

P.S:I know a fit man like him is still going to be much stronger than a fit and athletic woman of comparable size, that's the point of the question, otherwise there would not be any need to ask.

Sure, it's always conceivable, especially if the big NFL player was completely uninitiated and even a little naive to the effectiveness of these Jiu-Jitsu techniques AND the woman was very skilled, athletic and strong in her own right - a Bia Mesquita for example. I think such a woman would be VERY few and far between to tap such a big athletic hulk. Size, strength and athleticism combined is very difficult to overcome if you're behind in all three of those categories and only have knowledge and experience in your favour and there is a point where a significant size/strength/athleticism gap will make it insurmountable.

For me, athleticism is perhaps the most important factor of all. Athleticism transcends activity and is the catalyst for skill - the level at which one can perform and level of mastery one can display.

Give an athletically gifted person some tutelage and they're invariably going to do more with it than an average or less athletically gifted person. That's why someone like Greg Hardy can go from the NFL to UFC and need very little time to adapt and almost immediately be competing at a high level. It's why people say "give Serena Williams a year to train and she'd beat such-and-such WMMA fighter" and I believe them. Maybe not the likes of Nunes, Cyborg, Shevchenko, etc, who are athletic she-studs themselves (Cyborg was a national level handball player) but the likes of Roxanne Modaferri, who might boast 20 years MMA experience, black belt BJJ, brown belt Judo, but still have nowhere near the athleticism of Williams thus nowhere near the competitive sporting potential.

As I've said before, thinking we all start from the same place when learning a new skill and have the same ceiling of potential based on time and effort put forward is a huge fallacy.

By the same token as NFL players, you can take big female olympic throwers like Valerie Adams, Sandra Perkovic and Shelbi Vaughan and they'd simply just squish a lot of little try-hard males.

Does it really matter that this little, unathletic Indian guy might know a bit of Jits from classes twice a week for the last 6 years, or would Adams just maul him like a Momma bear with a cub? It's basically adult vs. child.





...Does it really matter that these little Chinese Shaolin Monks have dedicated their lives to practising arty-farty, floaty Kung Fu compared to 6ft, 175lbs powerhouse Belarussian Tennis player Aryna Sabalenka? Put them in a cage and she most likely steamrolls any of them 1-on-1 based on size, strength and athleticism alone.