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  #11  
Old 17-Feb-21, 09:15
Elbow Escape Elbow Escape is offline
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Default Re: How strong and muscular can women get without steroids?

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Originally Posted by Wrestler11 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Does not seem likely.

You can find traces of it in the blood.
Also it has to with level of your hormones.
So if you use a substance that forces your body to make more you get above that level.
If you inject it into your body you also get above that level.

Personally I find it utterly disgusting that people acuse athletes of using roids without any evidence and just because they have a sixpack and have dedicated their life to training.

Perhaps people should sit less on the couch and do some training themselves instead of making accussations against men and women who actually put in the work.
To me it seems that a lot of people that work out make those baseless accusations too.
The line of reasoning seems to be "Me and/or my friends work out and we are nowhere near his physique, therefore he must be on roids".

I admittedly know very little about weight training, but even I can spot that it's a very dumb argument since different people can have immensely different genetic potential.
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  #12  
Old 18-Feb-21, 21:32
Wrestler11 Wrestler11 is offline
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Default Re: How strong and muscular can women get without steroids?

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Originally Posted by Elbow Escape [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
To me it seems that a lot of people that work out make those baseless accusations too.
The line of reasoning seems to be "Me and/or my friends work out and we are nowhere near his physique, therefore he must be on roids".

I admittedly know very little about weight training, but even I can spot that it's a very dumb argument since different people can have immensely different genetic potential.

Everybody who is an Olympian or otherwise involved in serious competitions you can be quite certain they are not on roids.
The tests are random and can happen at anytime, before after and during competitions.
Those people devote their life to training so it would be weird if they would not look a certain way.

Most steroid abuse seems to take place with recreational bodybuilding guys who need a cheat code.
And they use it to get big real fast and recover fast in exchange for their health.

Seems the common opinion however is that if a guy or girl is ripped they MUST be on roids.
They don't even look at recovery, or how fast someone became like that but purely focus on low body fat.
Which seems really weird and most of the time is probably an excuse to justify why they themselves have not achieved certain things.

And it seems most (unathletic) guys who see a woman who is stronger use it as an excuse why she is better than them instead of working out themselves or admitting to themselves they don't have the drive/time/whatever to put in work in the gym.

Added after 9 minutes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiminy [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
IMO anyone who competes in the Olympics is "more or less" natty.

Sure, they all push the limits of supplemental and medicinal use for performance and recovery. But drug testing is very sophisticated today to the point where, for many, the risk isn't worth the reward. Especially when they can retain blood/urine samples until testing is even more advanced and then retrospectively shame and ban athletes for PED use.

One thing I forgot to add is that when you utilise steroids and spike testosterone levels, you need to do so in a big way to have visible results. I've used DHEA that Lyoto Machida was banned from the UFC for using. It's an over the counter supplement and honestly has next to no effects. Jon Jones was banned when they found a picogram of turinabol in his system. A picogram is a trillionth of a gram. That amount is not going to have an effect on performance or appearance.

It's the same with men that get prescribed TRT / HRT (testosterone replacement therapy. The aim of the treatment is just to bring them up to a "normal" level, not to give amazing results in muscle composition. You need much higher dosages for that. Doses that simply wouldn't get through today's drug testing. Governing bodies like WADA and USADA have tightened the belts immensely over the past 10 or so years.

The illegal stuff MMA folks use have less to do with getting a bodybuilding physique and more with speeding up recovery.

The issue with Jones was that the traces were of something that could help him speed up his recover etc.
I am not an expert on it but it seems common in the less tested leagues to cycle PED's during training camp so you can go harder and faster with less injuries and you are better prepped for fight week.

As a result it became a bit awkward that after USADA started to test the UFC the injuries suddenly went through the roof and certain athletes suddenly performed less and seemed to lack stamina compared to earlier matches.

Erick Silva was a fun example.
And after he signed with another organization his stamina suddely increased.

That is what makes it weird that Romero who has looks like a Greek God all his life is constantly accused purely based on his appearance. Despite that he looked exactly the same during his Olympic days.
And his tactics clearly take into account that his muscles heavily tax his gas tank.

Last edited by Wrestler11; 18-Feb-21 at 21:32.
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  #13  
Old 19-Feb-21, 18:03
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Default Re: How strong and muscular can women get without steroids?

How muscular can your average women become without steroids?
The answer is not very. The typical 20 yo man has about 700 nl/dl total testosterone.
The typical 20 woman, at the peak of her cycle has about 70 nl/dl total test. If they both train in the gym seriously, Your typical gal will never look like the photos in the first post.

However, if your talking about exceptionally genetically gifted women, they can get pretty big. (Probably 1:1000 based on my observations in gym over the last 40+ years or so)
For a woman to look like the attached photos naturally, she would have to have 1) high testosterone (probably a max of about 400 nl/dl) 2) born with long muscle bellies and high number of fibers (this is not sex dependent) and 3) willing to train smartly and with effort.

I've trained many women in the past who were at least somewhat gifted. Typically, they have noticeably larger muscles, but not jaw dropping and can bench press their body weight and squat 1.5x - 2x their body weight. A nominal woman will not be able to do this.


A good way to judge is to take a look at these vintage photos of strong-women of the past taken before steroids were available. They are examples of what the natural limit would be for very gifted women.
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File Type: jpg muscular-women-12.jpg (51.1 KB, 411 views)
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  #14  
Old 19-Feb-21, 18:38
Elbow Escape Elbow Escape is offline
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Default Re: How strong and muscular can women get without steroids?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mxboxer [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
How muscular can your average women become without steroids?
The answer is not very. The typical 20 yo man has about 700 nl/dl total testosterone.
The typical 20 woman, at the peak of her cycle has about 70 nl/dl total test. If they both train in the gym seriously, Your typical gal will never look like the photos in the first post.

However, if your talking about exceptionally genetically gifted women, they can get pretty big. (Probably 1:1000 based on my observations in gym over the last 40+ years or so)
For a woman to look like the attached photos naturally, she would have to have 1) high testosterone (probably a max of about 400 nl/dl) 2) born with long muscle bellies and high number of fibers (this is not sex dependent) and 3) willing to train smartly and with effort.

I've trained many women in the past who were at least somewhat gifted. Typically, they have noticeably larger muscles, but not jaw dropping and can bench press their body weight and squat 1.5x - 2x their body weight. A nominal woman will not be able to do this.


A good way to judge is to take a look at these vintage photos of strong-women of the past taken before steroids were available. They are examples of what the natural limit would be for very gifted women.
On a side note, do you know the name of the women in the photos you have attached?
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  #15  
Old 20-Feb-21, 14:12
Wrestler11 Wrestler11 is offline
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Default Re: How strong and muscular can women get without steroids?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mxboxer [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
How muscular can your average women become without steroids?
The answer is not very. The typical 20 yo man has about 700 nl/dl total testosterone.
The typical 20 woman, at the peak of her cycle has about 70 nl/dl total test. If they both train in the gym seriously, Your typical gal will never look like the photos in the first post.

However, if your talking about exceptionally genetically gifted women, they can get pretty big. (Probably 1:1000 based on my observations in gym over the last 40+ years or so)
For a woman to look like the attached photos naturally, she would have to have 1) high testosterone (probably a max of about 400 nl/dl) 2) born with long muscle bellies and high number of fibers (this is not sex dependent) and 3) willing to train smartly and with effort.

I've trained many women in the past who were at least somewhat gifted. Typically, they have noticeably larger muscles, but not jaw dropping and can bench press their body weight and squat 1.5x - 2x their body weight. A nominal woman will not be able to do this.


A good way to judge is to take a look at these vintage photos of strong-women of the past taken before steroids were available. They are examples of what the natural limit would be for very gifted women.


Great pictures.

However the era of black and white pictures was not exactly when we had figured out the peak of human potential.

Pretty much every athletic record from that day has been shattered by athletes after that.

With that reasoning Usain Bolt should be on steroids because during that era nobody could run as fast as him.

Nutrition, dieting, excercises etc have all massive influence on the performance of athletes (including the ladies in those pictures).
And the science behind those has been and keeps developing.

We also have to take into account that in the black and white era not a whole lot of women were into strength training or body building so the ladies in the pics might not be the best trained of genetically gifted representatives of female athletes in that areau.
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  #16  
Old 26-Feb-21, 16:12
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Default Re: How strong and muscular can women get without steroids?

I grant you that there have been advances in training in the last 100 years.
And there are more women training today than 100 years ago.

However, the biology for a typical woman vs typical man remain the same.
On the average, a typical woman will have between 1/10 and 1/3 as much testosterone as a typical man. (it varies considerably over the course of a woman's cycle)

This will net out as a significant difference in muscularity.
Take a look at the attached photos. I'm pretty sure the Michelle Berger, aka Buff Mother, has her training down pat. (I'm guessing she cycles her training to take advantage of the test peak at mid menstrual cycle) For a typical woman, Michelle is likely to be the most muscular they can be.
From the early 80's I have a picture of Rachel McLish and Laura Combs. Who were both professional Body Builders. I think they show a range of what is possible for 99.99% of women with Laura having a bit better genetics than Rachel.
Finally, Bev Francis from the same time period. An acknowledged Steroid user with pretty good genetics to boot. She was one of the first to use steroids and be a professional female bodybuilder.
It is unlikely that you will ever meet a women that looks like Bev and not be taking steroids.

You don't have to believe my personal experience, but for most women to look like a high level fitness competitor, they need to add a little juice.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrestler11 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Great pictures.

However the era of black and white pictures was not exactly when we had figured out the peak of human potential.

Pretty much every athletic record from that day has been shattered by athletes after that.

With that reasoning Usain Bolt should be on steroids because during that era nobody could run as fast as him.

Nutrition, dieting, excercises etc have all massive influence on the performance of athletes (including the ladies in those pictures).
And the science behind those has been and keeps developing.

We also have to take into account that in the black and white era not a whole lot of women were into strength training or body building so the ladies in the pics might not be the best trained of genetically gifted representatives of female athletes in that areau.
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  #17  
Old 03-Apr-21, 16:35
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Default Re: How strong and muscular can women get without steroids?

If Luisita Leers was around today, there's no doubt you'd have the garcons calling her a 'fake natty' and 'obviously on steroids' ... The same goes for guys like Eugen Sandow, George Eiferman and Reg Park. All built incredible physiques before the age of steroids.

Guys get butthurt when see the feats of strength from female powerlifters, crossfitters, and other athletes and the impressive physiques they display that put most men to shame. As always, we look for excuses, ways to mitigate inferiority rather than admit these women are genetically and athletically superior, stronger, willing to work harder and more knowledgeable about what they are doing.

"I watched a guy calling himself the Anabolic Doc on youtube while sitting on my ass scoffing cake and drinking coke and now I know all these girls are using steroids..."
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Old 06-Apr-21, 14:19
Tiberius Tiberius is offline
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Default Re: How strong and muscular can women get without steroids?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiminy [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
If Luisita Leers was around today, there's no doubt you'd have the garcons calling her a 'fake natty' and 'obviously on steroids' ... The same goes for guys like Eugen Sandow, George Eiferman and Reg Park. All built incredible physiques before the age of steroids.

Guys get butthurt when see the feats of strength from female powerlifters, crossfitters, and other athletes and the impressive physiques they display that put most men to shame. As always, we look for excuses, ways to mitigate inferiority rather than admit these women are genetically and athletically superior, stronger, willing to work harder and more knowledgeable about what they are doing.

"I watched a guy calling himself the Anabolic Doc on youtube while sitting on my ass scoffing cake and drinking coke and now I know all these girls are using steroids..."
She has strong arms and shoulders from acrobatics. But the rest of her body looks pretty normal and she does not have the big delts indicative of steroid use either. Her naturally sustaining somewhat more muscular arms is realistic. A steroid user would be big all over and lean.

Last edited by Tiberius; 06-Apr-21 at 14:24.
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  #19  
Old 08-Apr-21, 23:59
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Default Re: How strong and muscular can women get without steroids?

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Originally Posted by Tiberius [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
She has strong arms and shoulders from acrobatics. But the rest of her body looks pretty normal and she does not have the big delts indicative of steroid use either. Her naturally sustaining somewhat more muscular arms is realistic. A steroid user would be big all over and lean.
A lot of girls accused of steroids aren't even that big. Crossfitter Tia Clair Toomey for example is not a big woman, 5'4 128lbs.

But according to some, she must be using steroids because she's beating girls that fail drug tests. Oh, and she has more definition in her muscles than men's Crossfit champ, 194lbs Matt Fraser.
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  #20  
Old 15-Apr-21, 07:20
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Default Re: How strong and muscular can women get without steroids?

From my point of veiw, it's possible that girls can be much stronger as peoples expect in this forum, but you have to search more in a farm or heavy manual work.

And without steroids a part of girl can get for sure such a body, but not all

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