Do any of you see this fetish as a self-esteem issue?

[mrrassleswithgirls]

So, MY thoughts are, no, I don't fit any of your points. I believe there are those on this website who do, but don't think that all of us here fit your perspective, because many of us don't. You should not assume that they are universal truths. They are not.

This sounds to me like you've been brought up in an environment which is mysognistic. An environment where the idea of women equals to men is "wrong". And it sounds like you're trying to reconcile that with seeing a perspective that celebrates that women are equals to men in general and can be superior in some cases. Dnagerous stuff isn't it.

Now I don't subscribe to the idea that a 250 lb male bodybuilder can be beat up by a 90 lb woman. And I have no use for the "pretend" videos that some tiny, skinny, gal with stick arms is pinning this giant guy. Those images are silly. BUT there are those who like them for whatever reason. And fine, it's a free world and art is in the eye of the beholder. In this thread here we're just layig out opinions, so that's mine but I don't mean to put down those that emjoy such fair. But please don't think that ALL of us belive that. Some of us find it crap.

But I DO enjoy and have always enjoyed competing against equals and I know and see many men and women as equals. And I am perhaps a bit of an over stimulated male, so wrestling with a woman who is fit and trained and my size, an even match, I find VERY enjoyable. I would NOT find wrestling with a man the same. But that's just me.

Hence I'm just trying to emphasize that your "4 points" I suspect DO apply to some of those on this forum. But they are TOTALLY off the mark with some others of us.

For me, I'm a contrarian. I hate the hubrus of our mysognistic culture. So encouraging, being attracted to, helping, supporting, and admiring the grit of women who push back that this idea is something I like. It's throwing a finger at the whole power structure. I'm not afraid of inviting others to share the power, I'm confidant that I'll do all right competiting in life for promotions, a share of rewards, and life with anyone, male or female.

It does not make me any less competitive or male to see a woman as my equal. I should treat all women (and men) way I want to be treated.

[Dennis Dune]

The OP said:

Women aren't attracted to men who enjoy this stuff. They can't see a submissive man as attractive. I would be happy to be wrong in this, but it's what I've noticed in real life.

Just a side-thought perhaps, but it's my impression that some of women's prejudices in this regard are the result of the feminine subculture-- that is, women reinforce each other's opinions as to what constitutes a "loser." So it's not entirely a matter of intrinsic attraction, but more cultural in nature.

I've seen similar things with regard to tall women. They're culturally programmed to think that their being tall is freaky, so they often don't want to date short men (like moi) because it emphasizes their "un-feminine" height.

[Braddogg4345]

Originally Posted by jaythefire666 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

In your relationship, when you say you are submissive - is that mean in most aspects like decision making etc? What happens when you guys argue or get into a major fight, do you just accept her decision?

Thanks again to all of you for discussing this. It occupies my mind sometimes (not always), but I would love to resolve it in my mind.

I am submissive in just about every aspect of our relationship. It is kind of hard to explain in a short post, but i have come to terms with the fact that my wife is a better leader than i am, and we both agree that i would follow her lead. We are in what is called a female led relationship (flr). Because of this dynamic, I definitely think more of my wife, and elevate her on a pedestal to the point where I believe her to be better than me. I don’t however, lower myself to where i have self esteem issues. When it comes to arguments....we rarely ever have them. When one person is in control, they call all the shots.

When it comes to physical strength and wrestling, i am bigger and stronger than her, but she can still hold her own against me. For her size, she is very strong, and she is very good at gaining and maintaining control over me. I dont feel embarrassed at all when she beats me. Now if she beat me in public, that may be a different story. I would probably be embarrassed at the time, but when i would look back on it, i would have nothing but admiration for what she is able to do to me.

[KillerCrushes]

"Most women" is not "all women" or even "almost all women". If you're into women in seeking a relationship partner AND if you consider yourself generally/largely submissive, then you should not seek out potential relationships with women who don't want a submissive male. No matter how attracted you might be to her/them, you know you're not a good match. Save your time, move on.

[Shado]

One problem in discussing "this" is that it is very hard to define what "this" is. On these Boards, you'll find a huge diversity of preferences, outlooks, and sub-interests. Some like one flavor, some like another. Some like a playful tone, some like a cruel tone, some like a humiliating tone, some like all of those at different times, some like a blend of them. Some like sensual "combat", some like a direct and explicit sexual component, some like (at least the idea) of graphic, bruising, blood-letting, bone-breaking violence.

Even the term "submissive" can mean any of many things, as can "dominant". Again, the tone and flavors vary widely, from a winking, playful tone to genuine utter contempt.

Guess what I'm saying is that it's hard to discuss "in general" when there are so MANY specific differences in play.

I would say that if your turn on is a woman who truly sees you as contemptuous and beneath her, it's hard to see that going anywhere long term, unless the relationship is ... professional ... in nature.

[laura lover]

Fetish ? What is abnormal about enjoying the female form in all its variety and wonder ? I love the physical contact and rivalry I enjoy with a small network of female friends where "play" wrestling is part of the fun. When Coral, for instance, occasionally gets the better of me I don't feel emasculated or feeble, but more determined to win next time. Her reward is to be pussy linked, she gives me a blow job when I win, (consenting adults, where's the harm ?).This forum provides great ideas for mixed wrestling scenarios - Mavrint and Julia with their partners (to and fro), Sleeperkid using prevailing or Eric losing to Lily- the choice is yours`.

I meant licked instead of linked (3rd row) and usually rather than using in Row 4- bloody spell checker !

[KillerCrushes]

Originally Posted by laura lover [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

Fetish?

Excellent point.

If anyone is concerned about their self-esteem, then they aren't dealing with a fetish.

[Backdoorman]

Originally Posted by jaythefire666 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

Hello all,

So I've enjoyed watching mixed wrestling videos a lot but I've started to watch more conventional stuff and I'm trying to wean off this (it's not easy). I'm extremely turned on with the idea of a stronger woman dominating me in wrestling but I am also embarrassed by it. And pleasure lasts only for the moment, but humiliation, lasts longer.

I know some of you share this feeling too. But overall, I see this as being bad for my romantic life for the below reasons:

1. Women aren't attracted to men who enjoy this stuff. They can't see a submissive man as attractive. I would be happy to be wrong in this, but it's what I've noticed in real life.

2. Men are actually stronger than women biologically in an apples to apples comparison (genetics, diet and training being similar). So men are expected to protect and lead and that goes to point 1 again. By resigning ourselves to this fetish, we don't make an effort to become stronger because we absolutely get turned on by the opposite (being weaker). So we aren't living to our greatest potential.

3. I think each of us came to this because a particular incident hit our self-esteem (not who but the basic worth of us as men). Either being hit in childhood, or losing to a stronger woman, or admiring women and being rejected by then that being touched by then in the form of a domination was the only way - and some of that that left us extremely humiliated but later we realized we could do nothing about it or the effort to salvage our dignity was too much, so we accepted it in our psyche that it's okay, to the point of wanting it as the touch of a woman (sexual).

4. We idolize women and demean ourselves and we think that by praising them we are getting somewhere, but truth is their idea of such a man is that he's a "loser". So why should we encourage our mind to be treated like a loser? And isn't that precisely the definition of a person who lacks self-esteem?

I guess the only reason I'm typing this here is to learn the thoughts of others. Does any of the 4 points above make sense or resonate with anyone here? I'm balancing here as well - a base urge in me wants it, but the human in me knows it's a path to becoming and being considered a "loser".

Yes, fetishes can fueled by shame, and a femdom fetish could be caused by shame because you feel like you are being brought low by someone who ought to be inferior to you. A lot of people here, despite their sexual interests, have a lot of disrespect for women. Even if the woman is in a superior position of power, they still only exist in relation to the men they are interacting with. A woman's own existence as an independent entity isn't even considered; it doesn't actually matter. They exist only to be a vector for the male, because they are still "lesser" even when they are playing the part if the better. This, however, can be cured by treating women like goddamn human beings, so that losing to a woman is no more shameful than losing to anyone else.

Also point #2 is horseshit from one end to the other for a handful of reasons, 1.) Strength between the two sexes isn't cut and dry. It depends on what muscle groups you're talking about (ex: lower body strength are equivalent, and women are better at resisting heat than men.) 2.) Women do not get the same training as men, because boys are encouraged to be physical while girls are discouraged, so a female athlete has to play catch-up because she had been forced to miss the most critical state of development, 3.) the segregation of the sexes guarantees that one group is going to get better treatment than the other (proof: all of goddamn history,) 4.) As the athletic field becomes more open to women, women have been closing in on their male compatriots, 5.) When a woman outperforms other women, or even men, her agency and femininity are denied (ex: when the women's baseball league was disbanded due to "lack of interest" the year a mixed game where a female pitcher struck out both Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig. [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register],) and 6.) Biologists and the medical community do not even recognize a distinct male/female binary, rather as a continuum, so anyone trying to talk about "men vs women" isn't even starting from a scientific standpoint. Maybe your self-esteem will improve if you don't get all of your information from r/incel, or perhaps if you just enjoy the things you enjoy without worrying too much about how it reflects on you as a man.

[jaythefire666]

mrrassleswithgirls

I didn't grow up in a misogynistic environment at all. I had many dominant female figures growing up which is why I developed this fetish. Men and women are equals - equality has nothing to do with ability.

If you probably wrestled female athletes, it wouldn't be such a big deal. But I guess where I went with the OP is that the enjoyment of losing to a woman isn't seen as a sexy trait, and that's where it hits my self-esteem, and I feel many men here are in toxic relationships where they think enjoying that is normal. Are you telling me that if you told your female friend that you lost to a girl in wrestling she would see it the same way as you having lost to another guy?

Truth is even women would find it hilarious and less than impressive. Because they know women are physically weaker biologically. And I haven't come across a single woman who find that sexy - they may do it for a living, but even those women when they want a relationship, want a strong guy.

Dennis Dune

I agree it could be greatly societal. But it's still real and doesn't cease to exist merely because it's societal. I mean it's seen as as weird because guys develop strength readily more than women - so a guy who couldn't beat a girl isn't seen as attractive, because he isn't seen as a man. And this isn't really about male ego - women don't find this sexy, because I never had an ego about this till I learned this.

Even female bodybuilders or strongwomen competitors very rarely have weaker boyfriends, because they actually find stronger men sexy. So this thing (I won't call it fetish, fine), is sexy to us, but not attractive to women is what I understand - and that is what hurts my self-esteem. And due to that it has become a little less sexy to me

Braddogg4345

I am submissive in just about every aspect of our relationship. It is kind of hard to explain in a short post, but i have come to terms with the fact that my wife is a better leader than i am, and we both agree that i would follow her lead. We are in what is called a female led relationship (flr). Because of this dynamic, I definitely think more of my wife, and elevate her on a pedestal to the point where I believe her to be better than me. I don’t however, lower myself to where i have self esteem issues. When it comes to arguments....we rarely ever have them. When one person is in control, they call all the shots.

Well you are a human right? Are you so neutered that you are incapable of disagreeing with her? And if that's the case, it's not healthy. You say you don't have self-esteem issues - but what happens when one fine day she tells you you are a loser and can't make a single decision right without her, would you just stand and accept that you are a loser?

I can't think of any couple that doesn't get into fights.

Originally Posted by laura lover [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

Fetish ? What is abnormal about enjoying the female form in all its variety and wonder ? I love the physical contact and rivalry I enjoy with a small network of female friends where "play" wrestling is part of the fun. When Coral, for instance, occasionally gets the better of me I don't feel emasculated or feeble, but more determined to win next time. Her reward is to be pussy linked, she gives me a blow job when I win, (consenting adults, where's the harm ?)

That's still good intimacy because there is a give and take. :-)

I guess I'm talking about guys who feel resigned to lose and enjoy that. I'm like that too, but lately my mind is taking objection to this (my ego, self-esteem whatever), even though I enjoy it at a very base level. And the reason is I've seen that women don't find this attractive as a trait in a man.

Earlier, I used to think they'd find the easy going nature and love for female domination thrilling and exciting, but I've come to see no woman does at their personal lives. And they aren't attracted to such men - and that's what actually affects my self-esteem.

Shado

I would say that if your turn on is a woman who truly sees you as contemptuous and beneath her, it's hard to see that going anywhere long term, unless the relationship is ... professional ... in nature.

I agree with you on that. And yet, there are a few individuals here that don't see a problem with it. For me as long as this is playful it's really a healthy way of a woman feeling close to her man and increasing intimacy - it's okay. But if I am to believe some of the relationships I read - they are just abusive, cruel relationships where the men clearly lack self-esteem, and the women think of them as losers. I can't why a human should be made to feel that way.

Backdoorman

Also point #2 is horseshit from one end to the other for a handful of reasons

I'm not saying a woman can't be stronger than a man. But everyone, including (maybe especially) women will find it laughable if you say you lost to a girl, even more if you say you enjoy it.

And why is that? It's simple. Because men are predisposed to greater strength - biologically. If a man and woman - genetically similar, were to each and exercise the same, the guy would be way stronger. It's from this fact the awkwardness/shame/humiliation comes. And it's not entirely internal in its origin, even a girl you date would find it funny (if she was a strong woman like say you arm wrestled Sarah Backman), and he would find it funny and loserish of you if it was a regular girl.

[magnate]

Originally Posted by jaythefire666 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

Hello all,

So I've enjoyed watching mixed wrestling videos a lot but I've started to watch more conventional stuff and I'm trying to wean off this (it's not easy). I'm extremely turned on with the idea of a stronger woman dominating me in wrestling but I am also embarrassed by it. And pleasure lasts only for the moment, but humiliation, lasts longer.

I know some of you share this feeling too. But overall, I see this as being bad for my romantic life for the below reasons:

1. Women aren't attracted to men who enjoy this stuff. They can't see a submissive man as attractive. I would be happy to be wrong in this, but it's what I've noticed in real life.

2. Men are actually stronger than women biologically in an apples to apples comparison (genetics, diet and training being similar). So men are expected to protect and lead and that goes to point 1 again. By resigning ourselves to this fetish, we don't make an effort to become stronger because we absolutely get turned on by the opposite (being weaker). So we aren't living to our greatest potential.

3. I think each of us came to this because a particular incident hit our self-esteem (not who but the basic worth of us as men). Either being hit in childhood, or losing to a stronger woman, or admiring women and being rejected by then that being touched by then in the form of a domination was the only way - and some of that that left us extremely humiliated but later we realized we could do nothing about it or the effort to salvage our dignity was too much, so we accepted it in our psyche that it's okay, to the point of wanting it as the touch of a woman (sexual).

4. We idolize women and demean ourselves and we think that by praising them we are getting somewhere, but truth is their idea of such a man is that he's a "loser". So why should we encourage our mind to be treated like a loser? And isn't that precisely the definition of a person who lacks self-esteem?

I guess the only reason I'm typing this here is to learn the thoughts of others. Does any of the 4 points above make sense or resonate with anyone here? I'm balancing here as well - a base urge in me wants it, but the human in me knows it's a path to becoming and being considered a "loser".

I think you, the OP, Jaythefire666, is really "onto something" with your line of self-questioning and introspection. I didn't look at all of the reply posts in detail (yet), but I will offer that maybe the type of help you seek can't be had easily in a public discussion forum where there are too many differing opinions, too many political agendas, etc.

Yes- You cannot over-generalize. Whether or not your fetish/"our" fetish is healthy and adaptive or unhealthy and self-destructive is highly subjective, and ultimately only *you* can answer that question as these urges apply to you.

And if you, Jaythefire666, end-up concluding that your non-vanilla sexual urges are an unhealthy set of desires and acts, and that they stem from low self esteem, you can't go around saying in the forum "hey maybe this is fetish stuff is unhealthy for everyone", because you will rustle a lot of feathers, and what's true for you may not be true for others.

As for your comment "Women don't find submissive men attractive or desirable"...I would say that they may be true *most* of the time, but there may be exceptions to that rule.

There are some (few) women who truly enjoy the power exchange dynamic of mixed wrestling and enjoy being dominant.

If you want meaningful, deep, connected intimacy, however, you have to be on relatively equal footing with your intimate partner. It can't be about anyone dominating anyone else. That's what my life experience has taught me thus far.

Originally Posted by Backdoorman [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

6.) Biologists and the medical community do not even recognize a distinct male/female binary, rather as a continuum, so anyone trying to talk about "men vs women" isn't even starting from a scientific standpoint.

Where do you get this claim from? What kind of insanity has the world come to? Unless they revise all the medical and biological manuals, there are two biological sexes in humans and in lots of other higher species...male and female.

Now if you want to talk about this from angles other than Biology...than, yes, there exists a "spectrum of gendered behavior". There are things that --by social convention-- are considered "Feminine" or "masculine". But just because a man exhibits some behavior or traits that are thought of as feminine, doesn't mean he's actually not a man, or he has a gender from a long list of possible genders....that is rubbish IMHO.

I enjoy watching romcoms and I like sour apple martinis. I have male gender parts...I am still biologically "male". I happen to be heterosexual and male, but I have some tendencies that traditional society would consider "effeminate". I dont think I have gender dysmorphic disorder...Im am just a guy that likes chick flics and girly drinks.

In my life, I've known heterosexual men who were ballet dancers...or cheerleaders. I've also known homosexual men who were construction workers.
If a women likes stereotypically male things...back in the day shed be labeled as a tom boy. Why is it any more complicated than that?

why are there now more than 2 genders? I just dont get it.