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  #71  
Old 13-May-20, 01:08
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Default Re: UFC Back in Business from April 18th

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClckwrkOra [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
I didn't know it was legal to kick the kneecap. That's insane.
Me neither. OUCH! I've seen that demonstrated as a self-defense tactic, used to maim an attacker, ending the attack.

Chris Price, Lots of mixed fight stuff for over 50 years.
Updated November 6, 2019

Q: “What are the rules concerning kicking in MMA? Can you kick somebody in the knee?”
………….
You can - but there are 3 problems with this.

Kicks directed at the knee joint or anywhere connected to it such as the kneecap are maiming moves. Ligaments are destroyed, tendons are stretched, the joint capsule ruptured, and so on. If a kick such as front kick to the kneecap or a sidekick to the front or side of the knee are successful, the victim is unlikely to fight again, and in some cases lucky to be able to walk.
The minimum amount of damage from a kick that succeeds in disabling the other fighter are stretched ligaments and/or tendons. The person might be off training for a year, and may never be 100% again.
You can, though, do these moves as a jab type: not full power. In that case they can seriously annoy and distract the opponent without crippling them.
Everyone knows what the consequences are. Fighters who go for shots like that will become known as career destroyers and idiots. Because it is legal, somebody will injure an opponent permanently at some stage, and then the fight rules will have to be changed - because when someone succeeds with a move, it starts a chain of people doing it too, even when they don’t know the consequences. Breaking the fingers by back-ripping them, or the knees by kicking through them, means removing fighters from competing and usually finishing their careers.
That is not sustainable, otherwise Pankration / Vale Tudo would be popular.
It’s not easy to teach people these shots. There are a bunch of reasons for this, outlined below.

Coaching issues
There are 3 basic moves in this class:

The front kick to the kneecap, to knock it over to the side and dislocate it. There are a couple of variants on this: one is designed to snap the kneecap; one to knock it over to the side; one uses the sole of the foot to do that; etc.
The slant thrust kick, aka oblique kick, to bang through the joint and rip the cruciate ligaments out, by forcing the joint to bend in reverse past the point the ligaments lock it at.
The side kick - used to the front or side of the knee, kicking through the joint to destroy it.

These are easy kicks to practice on a bag, and used a lot in Boxe Française street technique training.

At one point I tried coaching these moves because in our gym’s system of practical boxing - a system that works well for street survival and can also be used in the ring, when toned down a bit - it seemed like a good idea. I’d worked these moves in martial arts training and they looked useful, though my group of friends had never used these moves in anger because most of our practical training had been in bouncing jobs. Busting someone’s knee is the exact opposite of what is needed: they need to wake up next day with a sore head and be able to go to work; not be maimed. Standing chokes and ‘drag-outs’ are the go-to moves for bouncers, after doing a bit of pre-choke ‘calming’.

It didn’t work. There were several sticking points:

We had to spend a lot of time on it, to get the accuracy and technique right. There are 2 basic types of these shots: the kneecap dislocator, and the joint destroyer. Both need precision and power or they don’t work.
When you miss - and you only have to miss slightly - you are in a screwed position because it places you all wrong for defence. Say we go for a front kick to the kneecap, to dislocate it off to the side - certainly highly effective when it works - but a miss puts you in line for a good counter. (People say the kneecap can be snapped but I’ve never seen it or heard of it done except in parachute drops gone wrong; an ex-army pal told me how he snapped his kneecap with a bad landing.) Now this shot needs absolute accuracy - certainly within about half an inch / 13mm in any direction, or it doesn’t work. This is getting into the atemi kind of class: effective, for sure, but can you pull it off in a fight? We found in sparring that it has a low success ratio: too many misses, and you face plant onto his counter. Ditto for the side kick though the knee joint: it needs accuracy, and is dangerous in sparring.
It is what I call a ‘10% move’: about 10% of the people you coach on it will be able to use it effectively. This is the same for the bolo liver shot (the straight-arm whip), and many other specialist moves. It’s gold for the small number of people it suits - the other 90% wasted a lot of time on it. Worse, they might try and use it in a fight, and pay hard.
Next you come to the fact that anything you use on the cobbles or in a contest (and any good contest is much longer than a streetfight and likely to be physically harder overall) has to be well-practiced in sparring, and be effective in sparring - or we just don’t use it. Theory is no use when someone punched you in the face and another guy is coming in with a knife.
You can’t spar with these moves: they destroy the knee joint. You can’t build power in them for actual use - they wreck people’s ability to walk never mind anything else.
They require way too much accuracy in a real fight, which is chaos, with someone holding you trying to get you down and another punching you. Maybe it is in poor light too. Pinpoint shots are no good for this, especially pinpoint kicks.
Theory is no use in a fight: what you need is auto moves - moves that you did thousands of times on a bag, thousands on a partner in drills, and thousands on a partner in sparring. That way they still work when you just took a hard shot in the face. Miss one of those out and it’s likely to fail. Likely fails are not a good bet in fights, they come in the same class as jump spin kicks. You need simple, effective moves that still have some percentage of effect even if you are off-target. You will be off-target slightly a lot of the time because somebody is scuffling with you or just punched you in the face. Kicks to the knee require 100% accuracy.

What we found was that these moves have a poor effort/result ratio. They are hard to train, don’t work for everyone, have big risks in sparring, and are unreliable in scuffles in low light.

In contrast we got a huge payback from using Jan Plas’ Amsterdam boxing/low kick system (the low-level round kick using the shin to just above the knee) because it works for most people, it’s easy to train, it can be built up easily in sparring, it can be developed easily and without danger to the boxers as it’s just very painful and acutely debilitating when done right (hurts like hell, destroys the ability to stand, they recover later), it works in chaos and low light as it doesn’t have a precision requirement since if you’re off by a couple of inches it will still have an effect, it can be used to destroy non Thai boxers with surprising effect; and when we first started using it in the ring around 1982 or so, nobody had any clue what we were doing (low kick was unknown in the West at that time: outside of Holland, everybody was doing pure Thai style back then) and we won fights like a charm. It can also be developed further with more advanced tactics to beat people who have basic knowledge of it.

………….

So all in all, we found there was a much bigger payback from the Dutch low kick, and too little from the direct knee attacks, along with too many training issues.

As to using these shots in a contest: they are often allowed, simply because nobody ever uses them. Fighters and coaches are not arseholes after all - everybody knows how much they need their health & fitness. If people start using direct attacks to the knee joint and they succeed in destroying joints (not just ‘jabbing’ with them), the rules for Western Thai boxing and MMA fights will be changed to ban them.

Even in Thailand, where it’s fine to KO your opponent with a downward elbow to the back of the neck (all aspects of this are banned in MMA), the fighters don’t attempt to attack the knees, at least to the point where there is a risk of permanent damage - they may jab at them with the front kick and slant stamp to annoy and impede the other fighter. Even though there are no rules in many fights there, the fighters have a convention among themselves that they don’t attempt moves that will end the opponent’s career if successful.

My suspicion is that attacks to the knee joint are allowed in MMA because nobody on the rules committee knew of these moves when the rules were established, and rules changes are both difficult and controversial. They lead to endless arguments on the night because most coaches don’t know the rules. They don’t have a hard copy of them and have never trained to the rules - they just do what they always did or what they saw at the last fight.
* Training to the rules is where you get a hard copy of the rules, examine them very carefully, and try to see ways in which your gym can maximise results according to the printed rules. It is one of the most successful development methods used by advanced coaches in any sport.

Kicks to the knee may be allowed in several codes - but nobody wants to train them or use them, at least with full power. Nobody sane, anyway. These moves are in theory A1 for street survival but the issue for us was that we had to use it in sparring or the move was too weak for practical use, for us; and it’s a 10% move: it doesn’t work for everyone. They are good at these moves in Boxe Française as it is part of the system core: streetfighting with boots on is emphasised, using leg kicks plus boxing; but I feel they have to make too many accommodations to make this work (for example, going slow and careful much of the time).

We just found in practice you can use stuff sharpened up in sparring: a left hook - right low kick as it beats all the dummies; a cross - left hook - right low kick as it beats a lot of people with training but no proper fight experience; and get in close, fight short, then front leg low kick to his rear leg, as that is the master’s low kick and it beats pretty much anyone. All those can be worked in sparring - as against knee joint snappers, which are hard to do realistically but safely.

From 2012:

[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

Last edited by stymie; 13-May-20 at 01:17.
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  #72  
Old 13-May-20, 03:02
ClckwrkOra ClckwrkOra is offline
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Default Re: UFC Back in Business from April 18th

Quote:
Originally Posted by stymie [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Me neither. OUCH! I've seen that demonstrated as a self-defense tactic, used to maim an attacker, ending the attack.

Chris Price, Lots of mixed fight stuff for over 50 years.
Updated November 6, 2019

Q: “What are the rules concerning kicking in MMA? Can you kick somebody in the knee?”
………….
You can - but there are 3 problems with this.

Kicks directed at the knee joint or anywhere connected to it such as the kneecap are maiming moves. Ligaments are destroyed, tendons are stretched, the joint capsule ruptured, and so on. If a kick such as front kick to the kneecap or a sidekick to the front or side of the knee are successful, the victim is unlikely to fight again, and in some cases lucky to be able to walk.
The minimum amount of damage from a kick that succeeds in disabling the other fighter are stretched ligaments and/or tendons. The person might be off training for a year, and may never be 100% again.
You can, though, do these moves as a jab type: not full power. In that case they can seriously annoy and distract the opponent without crippling them.
Everyone knows what the consequences are. Fighters who go for shots like that will become known as career destroyers and idiots. Because it is legal, somebody will injure an opponent permanently at some stage, and then the fight rules will have to be changed - because when someone succeeds with a move, it starts a chain of people doing it too, even when they don’t know the consequences. Breaking the fingers by back-ripping them, or the knees by kicking through them, means removing fighters from competing and usually finishing their careers.
That is not sustainable, otherwise Pankration / Vale Tudo would be popular.
It’s not easy to teach people these shots. There are a bunch of reasons for this, outlined below.

Coaching issues
There are 3 basic moves in this class:

The front kick to the kneecap, to knock it over to the side and dislocate it. There are a couple of variants on this: one is designed to snap the kneecap; one to knock it over to the side; one uses the sole of the foot to do that; etc.
The slant thrust kick, aka oblique kick, to bang through the joint and rip the cruciate ligaments out, by forcing the joint to bend in reverse past the point the ligaments lock it at.
The side kick - used to the front or side of the knee, kicking through the joint to destroy it.

These are easy kicks to practice on a bag, and used a lot in Boxe Française street technique training.

At one point I tried coaching these moves because in our gym’s system of practical boxing - a system that works well for street survival and can also be used in the ring, when toned down a bit - it seemed like a good idea. I’d worked these moves in martial arts training and they looked useful, though my group of friends had never used these moves in anger because most of our practical training had been in bouncing jobs. Busting someone’s knee is the exact opposite of what is needed: they need to wake up next day with a sore head and be able to go to work; not be maimed. Standing chokes and ‘drag-outs’ are the go-to moves for bouncers, after doing a bit of pre-choke ‘calming’.

It didn’t work. There were several sticking points:

We had to spend a lot of time on it, to get the accuracy and technique right. There are 2 basic types of these shots: the kneecap dislocator, and the joint destroyer. Both need precision and power or they don’t work.
When you miss - and you only have to miss slightly - you are in a screwed position because it places you all wrong for defence. Say we go for a front kick to the kneecap, to dislocate it off to the side - certainly highly effective when it works - but a miss puts you in line for a good counter. (People say the kneecap can be snapped but I’ve never seen it or heard of it done except in parachute drops gone wrong; an ex-army pal told me how he snapped his kneecap with a bad landing.) Now this shot needs absolute accuracy - certainly within about half an inch / 13mm in any direction, or it doesn’t work. This is getting into the atemi kind of class: effective, for sure, but can you pull it off in a fight? We found in sparring that it has a low success ratio: too many misses, and you face plant onto his counter. Ditto for the side kick though the knee joint: it needs accuracy, and is dangerous in sparring.
It is what I call a ‘10% move’: about 10% of the people you coach on it will be able to use it effectively. This is the same for the bolo liver shot (the straight-arm whip), and many other specialist moves. It’s gold for the small number of people it suits - the other 90% wasted a lot of time on it. Worse, they might try and use it in a fight, and pay hard.
Next you come to the fact that anything you use on the cobbles or in a contest (and any good contest is much longer than a streetfight and likely to be physically harder overall) has to be well-practiced in sparring, and be effective in sparring - or we just don’t use it. Theory is no use when someone punched you in the face and another guy is coming in with a knife.
You can’t spar with these moves: they destroy the knee joint. You can’t build power in them for actual use - they wreck people’s ability to walk never mind anything else.
They require way too much accuracy in a real fight, which is chaos, with someone holding you trying to get you down and another punching you. Maybe it is in poor light too. Pinpoint shots are no good for this, especially pinpoint kicks.
Theory is no use in a fight: what you need is auto moves - moves that you did thousands of times on a bag, thousands on a partner in drills, and thousands on a partner in sparring. That way they still work when you just took a hard shot in the face. Miss one of those out and it’s likely to fail. Likely fails are not a good bet in fights, they come in the same class as jump spin kicks. You need simple, effective moves that still have some percentage of effect even if you are off-target. You will be off-target slightly a lot of the time because somebody is scuffling with you or just punched you in the face. Kicks to the knee require 100% accuracy.

What we found was that these moves have a poor effort/result ratio. They are hard to train, don’t work for everyone, have big risks in sparring, and are unreliable in scuffles in low light.

In contrast we got a huge payback from using Jan Plas’ Amsterdam boxing/low kick system (the low-level round kick using the shin to just above the knee) because it works for most people, it’s easy to train, it can be built up easily in sparring, it can be developed easily and without danger to the boxers as it’s just very painful and acutely debilitating when done right (hurts like hell, destroys the ability to stand, they recover later), it works in chaos and low light as it doesn’t have a precision requirement since if you’re off by a couple of inches it will still have an effect, it can be used to destroy non Thai boxers with surprising effect; and when we first started using it in the ring around 1982 or so, nobody had any clue what we were doing (low kick was unknown in the West at that time: outside of Holland, everybody was doing pure Thai style back then) and we won fights like a charm. It can also be developed further with more advanced tactics to beat people who have basic knowledge of it.

………….

So all in all, we found there was a much bigger payback from the Dutch low kick, and too little from the direct knee attacks, along with too many training issues.

As to using these shots in a contest: they are often allowed, simply because nobody ever uses them. Fighters and coaches are not arseholes after all - everybody knows how much they need their health & fitness. If people start using direct attacks to the knee joint and they succeed in destroying joints (not just ‘jabbing’ with them), the rules for Western Thai boxing and MMA fights will be changed to ban them.

Even in Thailand, where it’s fine to KO your opponent with a downward elbow to the back of the neck (all aspects of this are banned in MMA), the fighters don’t attempt to attack the knees, at least to the point where there is a risk of permanent damage - they may jab at them with the front kick and slant stamp to annoy and impede the other fighter. Even though there are no rules in many fights there, the fighters have a convention among themselves that they don’t attempt moves that will end the opponent’s career if successful.

My suspicion is that attacks to the knee joint are allowed in MMA because nobody on the rules committee knew of these moves when the rules were established, and rules changes are both difficult and controversial. They lead to endless arguments on the night because most coaches don’t know the rules. They don’t have a hard copy of them and have never trained to the rules - they just do what they always did or what they saw at the last fight.
* Training to the rules is where you get a hard copy of the rules, examine them very carefully, and try to see ways in which your gym can maximise results according to the printed rules. It is one of the most successful development methods used by advanced coaches in any sport.

Kicks to the knee may be allowed in several codes - but nobody wants to train them or use them, at least with full power. Nobody sane, anyway. These moves are in theory A1 for street survival but the issue for us was that we had to use it in sparring or the move was too weak for practical use, for us; and it’s a 10% move: it doesn’t work for everyone. They are good at these moves in Boxe Française as it is part of the system core: streetfighting with boots on is emphasised, using leg kicks plus boxing; but I feel they have to make too many accommodations to make this work (for example, going slow and careful much of the time).

We just found in practice you can use stuff sharpened up in sparring: a left hook - right low kick as it beats all the dummies; a cross - left hook - right low kick as it beats a lot of people with training but no proper fight experience; and get in close, fight short, then front leg low kick to his rear leg, as that is the master’s low kick and it beats pretty much anyone. All those can be worked in sparring - as against knee joint snappers, which are hard to do realistically but safely.

From 2012:

[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]


I can’t fathom why athletic commissions would allow that in events they regulate
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  #73  
Old 13-May-20, 06:37
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jiminy jiminy is offline
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Default Re: UFC Back in Business from April 18th

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClckwrkOra [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
I can’t fathom why athletic commissions would allow that in events they regulate
Most fighters it seems would rather keep them.

I think most purists would rather keep them as well if you want an MMA fight to resemble as closely as possible a real fight.



(Even for those not interested in the topic, check out Miesha at 3:15 in this vid.)

Added after 48 minutes:

Kick the knee and the breasts.


Last edited by jiminy; 13-May-20 at 06:37.
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  #74  
Old 13-May-20, 14:51
ClckwrkOra ClckwrkOra is offline
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Default Re: UFC Back in Business from April 18th

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiminy [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Most fighters it seems would rather keep them.

I think most purists would rather keep them as well if you want an MMA fight to resemble as closely as possible a real fight.



(Even for those not interested in the topic, check out Miesha at 3:15 in this vid.)

Added after 48 minutes:

Kick the knee and the breasts.




I realize you're not making the purists' argument, guy ...

But if their goal is street fights, then there should be no rules at all
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  #75  
Old 15-May-20, 02:40
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Default Re: UFC Back in Business from April 18th

The weird wacky process of setting rules for mma explained to Joe Rogan:

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  #76  
Old 15-May-20, 16:10
ClckwrkOra ClckwrkOra is offline
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Default Re: UFC Back in Business from April 18th

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Originally Posted by stymie [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
The weird wacky process of setting rules for mma explained to Joe Rogan:




Great find, guy. This is worse than I imagined.


They made 12-to-6 elbows illegal because of videos of guys using the technique to break blocks of ice.

Now doctors won't eliminate dangerous techniques (kicks to kneecaps) because of potential litigation from when they were legal.
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