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Old 17-Sep-20, 23:47
perpetuallylate2 perpetuallylate2 is offline
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Default About those "competitive" matches...(my experience with Session Girls Productions)

tl;dr: ordered 3 competitive customs through Session Girls Productions over the past year, first 2 seemed good, most recent one sucked and wasn’t competitive, I told the producer and he said competitive matches are almost never actually competitive and I should’ve known that when we agreed on a competitive match

I’ve seen a few different posts recently about matches being marketed as competitive and questioning whether they really are. In light of that, I wanted to share my recent experience with Session Girls Productions (which I’ll abbreviate as “SGP”) and the view of at least one producer on competitive matches in the industry.

To me, a competitive match is one where both wrestlers are genuinely putting in an effort to win. They’re genuinely trying to get taps, defend being tapped, and aren’t faking or exaggerating anything. It doesn’t need to be unsafe, they don’t need to be trying to kill each other, but they should both be going for the win. One way I thought I could ensure a genuinely competitive match was by ordering a custom video and being very clear that’s what I wanted. I reached out to SGP last November about doing a competitive wrestling match between two female wrestlers of different sizes (for whatever reason, F/F size mismatches are my thing). I specified that I wanted the match to be fully competitive but also realized safety should be a top priority.

Someone I’ll call B to avoid any outing violation responded and said what I wanted was totally doable. To be clear, I never spoke to Jennifer Thomas directly at any point, although I noted B cc’ed her on most of our emails related to my first video. I decided on Mistress Kara vs Wind Goddess, and when I again emphasized I wanted a fully competitive match, B responded that “they will both be going for it, trying to win, but they won’t be killing each other.” That sounded like exactly what I wanted. The video honestly exceeded my expectations to the point that I decided to do another one several weeks afterward, this time Wind Goddess vs Dez Desire. Again I emphasized I wanted a competitive match. Again the video exceeded my expectations. At this point I was so satisfied I agreed to write a glowing review for SGP that they could put on their website. I sent the review to B and noted we should keep in touch. He agreed. That was the last communication I had with him.

Two weeks later I received an email from someone I’ll call C. C told me he shot my prior video and had helped build SGP with B. Apparently B had moved on to other projects and C was now Jennifer’s partner in the web site. C told me to let him know when I wanted another custom.

I reconnected with C last month to ask about a custom between Big Red and Wind Goddess when both were in Vegas for the Session Girls event, same specs as my prior videos. C said that would be totally doable. Because it had been awhile and this was my first time working with C, I felt it was a good idea to lay out the specifics again. Again I specified I wanted everything to be “100% unscripted/competitive.” C responded “all good on that.” Unfortunately Wind Goddess cancelled her trip to Vegas. I thought Jenevieve Hexx might work as a replacement and asked C if she’d be willing to do what I wanted. C said she would.

I got the video last weekend and it did not meet my expectations at all. Aside from decent arm wrestling and leg wrestling matches, it didn’t seem competitive, and some parts were downright comical.

Getting a video that didn’t meet my specs would’ve been frustrating enough. But the response I received from C unfortunately made my experience worse. I won't recount the full back-and-forth because this is already long, but there’s one quote I want to emphasize (and I'll attach a couple screenshots of the email here with names removed so you can see the full context). After C admitted the girls were only going semi-competitive and I pointed out that wasn’t what we agreed on, he responded:

“And here's the issue we need to clarify right away. The word "competitive" gets thrown around, but almost no girls will go full competitive. It is almost always semi-competitive, made to look intense. I assumed you understood that, so I guess that was my bad. Girls who actually go competitive charge way more than I charged you. And your previous 2 matches WERE NOT competitive, but as I said, with Wind Goddess being a little ball of energy, she made it look good, but Dez and Kara were barely breaking a sweat.”

C also said “none of the other producers I know do full on competitive.” Look, maybe I’m being incredibly naïve here, but I was surprised by his response. If that’s the case, why not tell me upfront when I asked for a competitive match? And I was particularly surprised he would take the approach of calling into question the prior two matches I was actually happy with.

It sounds like SGP’s view (or at least C’s view) is that even if you specify a match should be competitive, and even if they agree they will produce said competitive match, don’t expect it to be competitive and don’t expect them to tell you that upfront. And they feel this view is industry-standard. Is it? Does Jennifer share this view? Other producers? Is that how the wrestlers view it?

I had some discussions with both Fight Pulse and Wrestling Monica about doing competitive customs once things open back up a bit more. However, if this is how the industry views competitive matches, I’ll pass. Then again, maybe this is just one producer trying to make excuses for a subpar video. Would love to hear others’ thoughts on/experiences with this.
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Old 18-Sep-20, 03:07
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Default Re: About those "competitive" matches...(my experience with Session Girls Productions

Quote:
Originally Posted by perpetuallylate2 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Would love to hear others’ thoughts on/experiences with this.

The word "competitive" is sacred to me as a producer. I define "competitive" to mean as follows: a match in which all participants are honestly trying their best to win; matches where actions and reactions are genuine, in-the-moment, and not following a script.

From my view, a mismatch (ex: size difference) can certainly be classed as "competitive" if both participants are actually trying their best and behaving naturally, even if the odds seem impossible. Essentially, to me, "competitive" is like a mainstream sports match -- even if one team pulls into the lead and takes over on the scoreboard, the other team just keeps trying, fights on to save face.

Anyway.

I have definitely produced competitive matches. I have filmed some great women and men who have given their all in competitive matches. And when I label a video release of mine to be "competitive," it absolutely must be real and follow my above definition of competitive.
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Old 18-Sep-20, 07:23
RNC RNC is offline
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Default Re: About those "competitive" matches...(my experience with Session Girls Productions

There certainly are studios where "competitive" means "competitive". Fight Pulse and DoomMaidens have lots of genuinely competitive stuff.

And, in my experience, there certainly seems to be other studios where "competitive" means "pretending to be competitive". I don't really want to name the studios in this category, as it is only my opinion based on a small sample - but I'm pretty sure that some studios use the term "competitive" very loosely, as the OP describes. I guess the girls not wanting to fall out with each other is an incentive to fake the action (which is understandable).
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Old 18-Sep-20, 12:21
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Default Re: About those "competitive" matches...(my experience with Session Girls Productions

This is the main reason I started Fight Pulse. I simply couldn't find enough real mixed matches for my personal enjoyment. Most of what was/is advertised as competitive is unfortunately anything but.

The reason a lot of producers don't or can't put out competitive matches consistently is because it's not easy to produce them. Safety is a big issue, which is why you see wrestlers who choose to not do competitive matches. You have to have a ruleset, refereeing, safety precautions, talks, etc.. Injuries can and do happen, and you have to be ready to deal with them. It's good to have a medical professional on site for aggressive matches between amateurs who are similarly skilled. The list goes on and on. It's easier to make a one-sided competitive match, than an even one, since the dominant one can usually take care of the safety of the match. Things are a bit easier between highly-skilled wrestlers, but still. Every session wrestler who has done competitive matches and sessions has suffered injuries, and can name you a list of them. Some of these have a life-long effect. Joint injuries are common, especially knee ligaments, but also ankles and shoulders. Back and neck injuries are common as well.

I wish wrestlers who put their bodies on the line would be appreciated more than they are, honestly, real wrestling is fucking hard. They are true badasses.

Most producers can't afford an injury.

Money is another issue. We live at a time where a lot of wrestling producers barely make enough money to sustain their businesses. Unless you are one of the few established producers, who've gathered a fanbase throughout the years, producing videos is a side job for you. Moreover, the fact that a match is competitive is not a guarantee that it will sell well.
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Old 18-Sep-20, 12:47
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Default Re: About those "competitive" matches...(my experience with Session Girls Productions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zweig [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
This is the main reason I started Fight Pulse. I simply couldn't find enough real mixed matches for my personal enjoyment. Most of what was/is advertised as competitive is unfortunately anything but.

The reason a lot of producers don't or can't put out competitive matches consistently is because it's not easy to produce them. Safety is a big issue, which is why you see wrestlers who choose to not do competitive matches. You have to have a ruleset, refereeing, safety precautions, talks, etc.. Injuries can and do happen, and you have to be ready to deal with them. It's good to have a medical professional on site for aggressive matches between amateurs who are similarly skilled. The list goes on and on. It's easier to make a one-sided competitive match, than an even one, since the dominant one can usually take care of the safety of the match. Things are a bit easier between highly-skilled wrestlers, but still. Every session wrestler who has done competitive matches and sessions has suffered injuries, and can name you a list of them. Joint injuries are common, especially knee ligaments, but also ankles and shoulders. Back and neck injuries are common as well.

I wish wrestlers who put their bodies on the line would be appreciated more than they are, honestly, real wrestling is fucking hard. They are true badasses.

Most producers can't afford an injury.

Money is another issue. We live at a time where a lot of wrestling producers barely make enough money to sustain their businesses. Unless you are one of the few established producers, who've gathered a fanbase throughout the years, producing videos is a side job for you. Moreover, the fact that a match is competitive is not a guarantee that it will sell well.
Really good points / explanation!
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Old 18-Sep-20, 14:16
bizyz bizyz is offline
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Default Re: About those "competitive" matches...(my experience with Session Girls Productions

Over the many years that I have been following the scene,alot of mixed wrestling videos that producers say are competitive are not.
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Old 18-Sep-20, 14:17
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Default Re: About those "competitive" matches...(my experience with Session Girls Productions

And even if all is agreed and seems understood, the match can still fail to be competitive. For example, the wrestlers could have a private agreement to take it easy, or outright agree to a certain outcome. This happens frequently on the scene. I try my best to alleviate this. How? I simply talk with them. We are all humans and have days where we don't feel like we can do this or that, or are tired, or simply don't like an idea. So, if I feel this kind of thing is an option, I always talk to the wrestlers. Or we start a match and if I see it's not real, I stop and talk. I ask if they want to film something different, and we do that. It's not important for me to film what we've agreed on, even if it's a custom, since I can either refund it or we can postpone it, both of which are better than delivering a half-ass product. What's important is to film something good, and for me to fully know what exactly we're filming. It can be domination, or some kind of contest, or whatever - possibilities are infinite, especially since we usually have at least 4 wrestlers present at shoots. All of these can sell, and how well depends on other variables. Mainly, of course, the wrestlers. As long as the wrestlers are comfortable with it or are into it personally, the content will be good. So, it's important that everyone is on the same line and having fun or at least not suffering.

Speaking of suffering, of course, it's a bit different with one-sided matches, domination videos, especially onslaughts, competitive or not, where we all usually know in advance that one of the two will be suffering for the benefit and enjoyment of all of us. They get paid well, get taken care of afterwards, appreciated a million times. We generally do our best to make sure they leave the studio happy at the end of the shoot, even if sometimes bruised and scratched. This business is really unusual.

Or, one of the wrestlers didn't sleep, has been sick, or is not in a good condition, and can't perform her/his best, or simply doesn't want to put a lot of effort, because effort is always painful, especially if you know you're going to lose. Depending on this we can either encourage them to try their best, or change the match.

These kinds of adaptations are a bit of a luxury. I didn't have this when I started. The first year was hard financially, and it would be hard for me to refund customs, etc, change schedules, cancel or postpone matches, etc. But, there's always something you can do.

How to spot a non-competitive match which pretends to be competitive? Look for score, pace and grips - an agreed encounter will more often than not be back and forth, and the wrestlers will score alternately; pace in an agreed match will be even, semi-fast throughout, while a real match will have episodes of super fast combat and almost-still stalemate positions; grips in a fake match will be weak and spontaneous, but firm and effective in a real match. Experienced jobbers / wrestlers in general can fake reality well, but you can still spot it most of the time. But not all of the time. Besides being a life-long fan of fetish wrestling, I have filmed hundreds of real matches, and I have to admit that even for me sometimes it's difficult to identify a fake match with certainty.
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Old 18-Sep-20, 15:21
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Default Re: About those "competitive" matches...(my experience with Session Girls Productions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zweig [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
This is the main reason I started Fight Pulse. I simply couldn't find enough real mixed matches for my personal enjoyment. Most of what was/is advertised as competitive is unfortunately anything but.

The reason a lot of producers don't or can't put out competitive matches consistently is because it's not easy to produce them. Safety is a big issue, which is why you see wrestlers who choose to not do competitive matches. You have to have a ruleset, refereeing, safety precautions, talks, etc.. Injuries can and do happen, and you have to be ready to deal with them. It's good to have a medical professional on site for aggressive matches between amateurs who are similarly skilled. The list goes on and on. It's easier to make a one-sided competitive match, than an even one, since the dominant one can usually take care of the safety of the match. Things are a bit easier between highly-skilled wrestlers, but still. Every session wrestler who has done competitive matches and sessions has suffered injuries, and can name you a list of them. Some of these have a life-long effect. Joint injuries are common, especially knee ligaments, but also ankles and shoulders. Back and neck injuries are common as well.

I wish wrestlers who put their bodies on the line would be appreciated more than they are, honestly, real wrestling is fucking hard. They are true badasses.

Most producers can't afford an injury.

Money is another issue. We live at a time where a lot of wrestling producers barely make enough money to sustain their businesses. Unless you are one of the few established producers, who've gathered a fanbase throughout the years, producing videos is a side job for you. Moreover, the fact that a match is competitive is not a guarantee that it will sell well.
Good stuff, Zweig. Because of my martial arts training, I'm regularly asked to make fully competitive videos. The safety issues and costs you cover so well preclude me from doing this. Eric was a very competent street fighter over many years and with my black belt knowledge, we could have some interesting stoushes.

You're certainly correct about the financial side of things too. From what I have seen, very few make much money from video making.
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Old 18-Sep-20, 15:44
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Default Re: About those "competitive" matches...(my experience with Session Girls Productions

Quote:
Originally Posted by perpetuallylate2 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
tl;dr: ordered 3 competitive customs through Session Girls Productions over the past year, first 2 seemed good, most recent one sucked and wasn’t competitive, I told the producer and he said competitive matches are almost never actually competitive and I should’ve known that when we agreed on a competitive match

I’ve seen a few different posts recently about matches being marketed as competitive and questioning whether they really are. In light of that, I wanted to share my recent experience with Session Girls Productions (which I’ll abbreviate as “SGP”) and the view of at least one producer on competitive matches in the industry.

To me, a competitive match is one where both wrestlers are genuinely putting in an effort to win. They’re genuinely trying to get taps, defend being tapped, and aren’t faking or exaggerating anything. It doesn’t need to be unsafe, they don’t need to be trying to kill each other, but they should both be going for the win. One way I thought I could ensure a genuinely competitive match was by ordering a custom video and being very clear that’s what I wanted. I reached out to SGP last November about doing a competitive wrestling match between two female wrestlers of different sizes (for whatever reason, F/F size mismatches are my thing). I specified that I wanted the match to be fully competitive but also realized safety should be a top priority.

Someone I’ll call B to avoid any outing violation responded and said what I wanted was totally doable. To be clear, I never spoke to Jennifer Thomas directly at any point, although I noted B cc’ed her on most of our emails related to my first video. I decided on Mistress Kara vs Wind Goddess, and when I again emphasized I wanted a fully competitive match, B responded that “they will both be going for it, trying to win, but they won’t be killing each other.” That sounded like exactly what I wanted. The video honestly exceeded my expectations to the point that I decided to do another one several weeks afterward, this time Wind Goddess vs Dez Desire. Again I emphasized I wanted a competitive match. Again the video exceeded my expectations. At this point I was so satisfied I agreed to write a glowing review for SGP that they could put on their website. I sent the review to B and noted we should keep in touch. He agreed. That was the last communication I had with him.

Two weeks later I received an email from someone I’ll call C. C told me he shot my prior video and had helped build SGP with B. Apparently B had moved on to other projects and C was now Jennifer’s partner in the web site. C told me to let him know when I wanted another custom.

I reconnected with C last month to ask about a custom between Big Red and Wind Goddess when both were in Vegas for the Session Girls event, same specs as my prior videos. C said that would be totally doable. Because it had been awhile and this was my first time working with C, I felt it was a good idea to lay out the specifics again. Again I specified I wanted everything to be “100% unscripted/competitive.” C responded “all good on that.” Unfortunately Wind Goddess cancelled her trip to Vegas. I thought Jenevieve Hexx might work as a replacement and asked C if she’d be willing to do what I wanted. C said she would.

I got the video last weekend and it did not meet my expectations at all. Aside from decent arm wrestling and leg wrestling matches, it didn’t seem competitive, and some parts were downright comical.

Getting a video that didn’t meet my specs would’ve been frustrating enough. But the response I received from C unfortunately made my experience worse. I won't recount the full back-and-forth because this is already long, but there’s one quote I want to emphasize (and I'll attach a couple screenshots of the email here with names removed so you can see the full context). After C admitted the girls were only going semi-competitive and I pointed out that wasn’t what we agreed on, he responded:

“And here's the issue we need to clarify right away. The word "competitive" gets thrown around, but almost no girls will go full competitive. It is almost always semi-competitive, made to look intense. I assumed you understood that, so I guess that was my bad. Girls who actually go competitive charge way more than I charged you. And your previous 2 matches WERE NOT competitive, but as I said, with Wind Goddess being a little ball of energy, she made it look good, but Dez and Kara were barely breaking a sweat.”

C also said “none of the other producers I know do full on competitive.” Look, maybe I’m being incredibly naïve here, but I was surprised by his response. If that’s the case, why not tell me upfront when I asked for a competitive match? And I was particularly surprised he would take the approach of calling into question the prior two matches I was actually happy with.

It sounds like SGP’s view (or at least C’s view) is that even if you specify a match should be competitive, and even if they agree they will produce said competitive match, don’t expect it to be competitive and don’t expect them to tell you that upfront. And they feel this view is industry-standard. Is it? Does Jennifer share this view? Other producers? Is that how the wrestlers view it?

I had some discussions with both Fight Pulse and Wrestling Monica about doing competitive customs once things open back up a bit more. However, if this is how the industry views competitive matches, I’ll pass. Then again, maybe this is just one producer trying to make excuses for a subpar video. Would love to hear others’ thoughts on/experiences with this.

C sounds like an absolutely loathsome character. At least start your own company and screw someone like Max Vitelli did and don't hide behind someone reputable like Jen. Then of course it is your fault for not knowing what you ordered. Screw that slimeball.
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Old 19-Sep-20, 02:42
perpetuallylate2 perpetuallylate2 is offline
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Default Re: About those "competitive" matches...(my experience with Session Girls Productions

Great points all, and thanks for the feedback. After giving it some thought and reading other people's views, I'm definitely leaning toward this just being an unfortunate interaction with one slimy producer vs an industry-wide practice.

Quote:
It's easier to make a one-sided competitive match, than an even one, since the dominant one can usually take care of the safety of the match.
I figured this was the case, which is why it was frustrating to have the producer try to argue that the first two matches weren't competitive because Kara and Dez weren't trying hard. It's not like they needed to, and they were obviously rightfully focusing on their opponent's safety. That doesn't make it not competitive, as long as the taps are legitimate and the smaller lady/underdog is trying hard.

Quote:
These kinds of adaptations are a bit of a luxury. I didn't have this when I started. The first year was hard financially, and it would be hard for me to refund customs, etc, change schedules, cancel or postpone matches, etc. But, there's always something you can do.
I can definitely understand this. When the girls have already taken the money and run, it's tough for the producer to come out of pocket with a refund. But even just being straight up and acknowledging what was delivered didn't meet what was agreed upon and apologizing for that can go a long way.

Quote:
C sounds like an absolutely loathsome character. At least start your own company and screw someone like Max Vitelli did and don't hide behind someone reputable like Jen. Then of course it is your fault for not knowing what you ordered. Screw that slimeball.
Unfortunately I think you're right. I actually wonder how involved Jen even is with the site at the moment. I've heard she's not as directly involved with the main Session Girls site anymore, but not sure if that's accurate and not sure how that translates to Session Girls Productions. I've thought about emailing her directly but not sure I'd get a response.
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