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  #1  
Old 23-Jun-14, 07:44
Raoul Fulgurex Raoul Fulgurex is offline
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Default The safety of smother KOs

There has been some good threads here about the safety of blood choke KOs, there are also quite some videos available, and I think I am beginning to have a somewhat accurate picture about them. On the other hand, air chokes with compression of the trachaea have also been discussed as not safe.

But what about smother KOs ? I mean a KO obtained by cutting the air supply, without pressure on a fragile zone like the throat. What happens to the victim and how dangerous is it ?
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Old 24-Jun-14, 03:08
wrestlefan2009 wrestlefan2009 is offline
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Default Re: The safety of smother KOs

And add KO by chest squeezing, like a body scissor or bearhug
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Old 24-Jun-14, 04:57
Peter07 Peter07 is offline
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Default Re: The safety of smother KOs

Before I start, I should say that none of what I write should ever be preformed it is extremely dangerous and can lead to serious injury or death.

1.1 Smothering

Yes, it is extremely dangerous to passout from smothering/ air chokes. A smother/air choke could lead to death in as little as 3-5 minutes, If the person is completely unable to breath. The time also depends on whether or not the person was able to take a deep breath before the smother. If the person was unable to hold their breath before the smother was applied unconsciousness and death can occur faster.

The reason why smothering is dangerous is because it completely cuts off the oxygen entering the body . This oxygen is crucial. It acts as the final electron acceptor in the electron transport chain. The electron transport chain is used to create ATP (Adenosine Triphosphate) which is essentially a purine nucleoside attached to three phosphate molecules. ATP is what gives us energy and it is created in the mitochondrion in our cells. We are able to move, talk, have heart beats because of ATP. There are three main biochemical pathways our bodies use to create ATP which are the electron transport chain, the citric acid cycle, and glycolysis. The electron transport chain produces 28 ATPs in one molecule of glucose (sugar) The citric acid cycle and glycolysis produce only 4 ATP each. The electron transport chain absolutely requires oxygen to produce ATP (energy). Although the citric acid cycle does not directly require oxygen it can only take place when oxygen is present since it relies on by-products from the electron transport chain. Glycolysis does not require oxygen, however it does require 2 ATP to work resulting in a net 2 ATP produced. The citric acid cycle also has a net 2 ATP produced. This means that when you are being completely smothered for every 1 molecule of glucose (sugar) you have in your body your body can only produce 2 ATP. Under normal breathing conditions for every 1 molecule of glucose broken down you get 32 ATP. This is a huge problem. Your body needs about 10 million ATP molecules per second per cell and if you are only getting 2 ATP per molecule of glucose your body will not function.

Your heart is not going to get the energy to pump blood to your brain. In fact, when your heart detects a decrease in oxygen it pumps harder. This increase in pumping is straining your heart and this stress to the heart can cause a heart attack. Your heart also needs ATP to beat without it your heart will stop beating and if that happens you will no longer have blood with oxygen attached to hemoglobin going to brain which will lead to brain damage and death. The reason why a person is able to hold their breath for 1-2 minutes is because they already have oxygen in their tissues and on hemoglobin in the blood, however, our bodies cannot store oxygen very well and it is depleted very quickly. Once this happens, the body is starved of oxygen and therefore the critical energy source (ATP). This causes the heart to stop beating and the brain to die with time.

1.2 Air chokes

Same principles of smothering apply to air chokes, when the trachea is compressed no oxygen is getting into lungs and therefore no ATP being produced. It is also very risky because the trachea could collapse making it impossible to breath. Fractured cricoid cartilage and crushed thyroid cartilage is also possible. I should mention smothering and air chokes are extremely uncomfortable and painful especially when the person is close to unconsciousness.

1.3 chest squeezing

This is a method I am least familiar with. I believe it is called the “California knockout”. The person crouches down with their backs against a wall and breathes in and out very quickly for about a minute. This causes hyperventilation. The person then quickly gets up still leaning against the wall with their arms crossed around their chest and another person will compress the chest while the person breathes out slowly. The hyperventilation causes more carbon dioxide to be removed from the blood stream than the body can produce leading to hypocapnia (reduced carbon dioxide) which leads to cerebral vasoconstriction (narrowing of brain blood vessel) that eventually leads to cerebral hypoxia (deprived oxygen in brain) . The decrease of carbon dioxide in the blood also causes alkalosis since carbon dioxide is acidic and less of it makes a more basic solution. This leads to a smaller amount of plasma calcium ions and therefore higher levels of muscle and nerve excitability. This is why the knocked out person feels pins and needles sensations in the hands and feet, muscle cramps, dizziness, tingling in the lips, tingling in hands and feet, headache, weakness, fainting, seizures, and involuntary contraction of muscles in the hands and feet. I am assuming the compression of the chest prevents the person from breathing but I am not exactly sure. This is probably the safer way to pass out by hyperventilating before squeezing chest. Also the person is standing up so gravity is working against the arteries moving blood to brain making it easier to faint. Now if a female was to squeeze someones chest with a legscissor say on the ground I think the only way the person would pass out was from just constricting the chest so hard the person could not breath which would be suffocating the person which is very dangerous. When you hyperventilate before you compress chest standing up you are in a way confusing the body to faint and can probably make someone go unconscious in 5-10 seconds like a blood choke, whereas the squeezing of the chest on the ground without hyperventilation would probably take 2-3 minutes and would be very dangerous because of the length of time and it is a form of suffocation.

1.4 blood chokes/carotid chokes

I have never been put unconscious with smothering, air chokes, or chest squeezing nor will I ever agree to it, I find the risk way to big. I have been semi unconscious by a blood choke never to the point of dreaming, but I have had tingly fingers, lips, and feet, limp legs and twitching of hands, arms, feet, legs and bobbing of head. It is a really weird feeling first my head feels flushed because veins are easily compressed and blood cannot flow away from head and vision starts to darken and then loss of leg strength. I have never been put out by a female. I have tried it on myself by crouching down and hyperventilating for a minute then getting up really quickly and squeezing the sides of the neck where there is a pulse (both carotid arteries) with the palms of my hands inward. I have a mattress on the floor and make sure not to have anything that can hurt me nearby as I fall because I lose all control of my body. I try to crouch down as I lose control of my legs so the fall wont be so high. I only do this with my hands because I know when I passout my hands will fall from my neck to allow blood flow. It is extremely DANGEROUS and extremely STUPID to tie anything around the neck because if you pass out with it on your neck it will stay there until you die. I read so many stories of people putting ropes, or belts on their necks they passout suddenly and die because the rope/belt etc. is still compressing arteries/trachea and nobody is there to take it off like a session wrestler or something. I have also read another story of a person performing a blood choke and banging their head on something hard after losing power in their legs and dieing of head trauma. As far as blood chokes I am willing to do them because It only takes 7-10 seconds to passout. And I think there is enough oxygen stored to create ATP for 7-10 seconds. If I can get a girlfriend or session wrestler to make passout from a blood choke that would probably be safer than doing it myself because I won't have to hyperventilate and I will most likely be sitting down/laying down so I won't have to worry about falling. I am also young, healthy, don't have heart or vascular problems, and in very good shape so I feel somewhat comfortable with the risk.

I tried to make all the biological mechanisms as simple as I could get them while still getting the theory across. I hope everybody stays safe.

Again do NOT attempt to do anything that was written/typed here because it is very dangerous and can lead to serious injury or death. I would hate for something bad to happen to any of you guys/girls. I cannot be held responsible or liable for any actions you take, their consequences, any loss or damage. I also do not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the written/typed message.
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  #4  
Old 24-Jun-14, 15:34
KazanaVest12 KazanaVest12 is offline
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Default Re: The safety of smother KOs

Good post, peter.

Man, being smothered would honestly suck. Already been put in airchokes by females in the past, and good god they suck too(atleast during the moment)
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Old 24-Jun-14, 15:59
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Houseman Houseman is offline
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Default Re: The safety of smother KOs

Excellent post !!! I feel the same way about all of these methods.

I may use the blood choke synopsis to convince the otherwise unwilling partners to give it a go, lol ...

Seriously !!!
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Old 24-Jun-14, 20:05
Raoul Fulgurex Raoul Fulgurex is offline
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Default Re: The safety of smother KOs

Thank you Peter, very thorough and serious answer. In fact, a so good answer that it makes me want to ask more questions !

- Usually, when I am in a smother I struggle against it, which makes me going much more rapidly out of breath. Would you judge that as less dangerous, like in the hyperventilation case ? After all, the oxygen balance should be about the same as after a minute of smothering without struggling.

- When the chest or abdomen is squeezed, isn't the vagal nerve involved in making the victim faint before he is completely out of oxygen ? I thought that it was what happened the only time I got really dizzy from a chest scissor. It was actually not when my wife was squeezing, but when she suddenly released the hold after I tapped.

And to reassure you, I have no intention of getting air-KOed. I always tap before. But I prefer to know what the risks are, just in case I sometime tap one tenth of a second too late.
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Old 25-Jun-14, 02:32
Peter07 Peter07 is offline
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Default Re: The safety of smother KOs

1.5 Concussions/ head trauma

Also I did not talk about concussions (being knocked out by head trauma). I have experienced a bad concussion before in a motocross accident with a helmet on. From my understanding a blood choke KO may cause temporary confusion (where am I? How much time went by? What happened?) for a few seconds after waking up. However, during a concussion I went to the emergency room (I don't remember how I got there). I was asked the month (It was May), but I had no idea. I started at December and named all the months (I also had no idea what I did that entire day, week or year). I was in this state of confusion for a day or two. Definitely extremely dangerous. I guess I was knocked out during the accident because I was unresponsive for a minute. This is very dangerous because during a concussion the very fragile brain hits the inside of the skull. I was extremely lucky that I did not get any apparent permanent brain damage. A concussion from head trauma is NOT the same as a blood choke.

I should also note there is not a lot of literature/research on this type of stuff because it would be unethical to do research on human beings on this choking/smothering stuff. There is an Institutional review board (IRB) which determines the risk-benefit on whether a particular research study should be done on humans. Having said this there was a University of Calgary study done on blood chokes not too long ago. I am guessing they deemed the blood choke risk-benefit worth doing. The research was done on 24 healthy police officers. The study found that blood chokes are commonly associated with brief involuntary muscle jerking, narrowing of visual field, and entering into a dream-like state. The study also found that recovery was immediate when the blood choke was released with no observed or reported negative side effects. The study did mention one should be very careful/not apply the blood chokes to unhealthy or older people.

Deaths from suffocation/smothering

A woman named Mia Landingham measuring 5ft 9in tall and weighing 350 pounds sat on boyfriends face while he was laying on the couch during some type of argument. He was 5ft 10in tall and weighed 126 pounds.

A woman named Donna Lange smothered boyfriend with breasts and killed him. She was 5 ft 6in tall and 192 pounds. He was 5 ft 7in tall and 175 pounds.

A UK woman smothered her boyfriend with 40LL breasts when they were having sex. Apparently she thought his flailing was from excitement. He stopped moving and appeared to not be breathing. Luckily the guy regained consciousness.

As you can see from these stories of deaths from smothers there is a very fine line between living and dying from suffocation. I will say however, that it appears that these woman were way bigger than those guys so they were completely helpless. In the first story the woman was 350 pounds and the guy was only 126 pounds so even if the guy wanted to take a breath he would have no chance, that is a crazy amount of weight to be under. I am sure these guys died within 5 minutes for sure. It really depends on whether or not they took a deep breath before they were smothered. Take me for example if I breath all the air out of my lungs and try to hold my breath I can only hold it about 15 seconds. Meaning I could pass out in a smother in 1 minute to 1 minute 30 seconds, this would be painful. If you ever tried holding your breath you can tell it is not a pleasant experience once you run out of useable oxygen. If I take a deep breath in I can hold my breath for about 2 minutes 45 seconds. After this point I really struggle to hold my breath. This is when it becomes dangerous. In this case I might passout after 3-4 minutes. (note I am in good shape and used to practice holding my breath a lot in the pool, I also don't smoke). Also when I hold my breath I am not moving. This is very important because the more I move the more energy that requires and the body requires more oxygen to create more ATP (energy) for this added movement. So If I took a deep breath and held my breath for as long as possible but this time I started walking around or flailing my arms I would run out of oxygen faster that is stored in the hemoglobin in my blood. So maybe moving around I would only be able to hold my breath for 1 minute 30 seconds. A good example of this is if you ever swim in a large pool and you hold your breath underwater holding completely still you will notice that you will be able to hold your breath for a longer period than if you started swimming laps underwater while holding your breath. If you hold your breath close to the limit you will also notice you will feel really tired. This is because you depleted the stored oxygen in your body (our bodies are not efficient at storing oxygen). Remember our bodies require ATP (energy) to move our muscles, contract our heart, and keep our brain alive. You need oxygen to create ATP to fuel the processes the body needs to function like muscle movement.

“Raoul Fulgurex” to answer your two questions...

1) When you struggle against a smother you are depleting your stored oxygen supply much faster. Our bodies mainly store oxygen in our red blood cells and more specifically in hemoglobin. Hemoglobin is what transports oxygen throughout our bodies. Oxygen attaches itself to hemoglobin. So you are partially correct yes if your mouth/nose are covered you have the same amount of oxygen inside your body regardless of whether you struggle or not, BUT when you are struggling that stored oxygen you have attached to your hemoglobin in red blood cells is being used up much faster because your body is using your stored oxygen to create ATP(energy) for you to move your muscles (arms and legs) around. Therefore, I would say if you are struggling you are going to pass out faster. It is not less dangerous than hyperventilation because during hyperventilation you are just “tricking” your body and besides during a blood choke you pass out in 5-10 seconds if done correctly, therefore In terms of oxygen loss a blood choke would be like holding your breath for 5-10 seconds (sort of). So your heart and other organs can still get oxygen even in the worse case scenario that your trachea was accidentally compressed (dangerous to compress trachea). I should note that your brain cannot store oxygen. The brain is not a muscle it is composed mainly of fat (fat allows transmission of signals to move faster between neurons). However, in a blood choke there is still blood going to head if done correctly through small arteries deep in neck. The main arteries cut off in a blood choke are the carotid arteries which decreases blood flow a certain percentage (I think like 15%) just enough to shut off frontal lobe of brain in order to preserve oxygen so the victim falls asleep (KO). Also during smothering and blood chokes the heart rate speeds up trying to pump more blood carrying oxygen throughout body that is why people with bad hearts or in poor health should not be put in blood chokes or smothers. This elevated heart rate could cause a heart attack and heart failure. My heart usually elevates to a rate at a brisk walk maybe jogging rate. To move back to question during a smother you are not hyperventilating by struggling you are just using up your oxygen faster. Also in terms of blood chokes vs smothering I definitely have suddenly passed out quickly with a blood choke without even realizing it was coming. During a smother it is a slow painful process I feel like you should start feeling when you are close to passing out. Before passing out I am sure the person will try to claw their way out and fight for their lives to breath. Their stomachs may start to move up and down trying to make breathing motions when they are really low on oxygen. If you look at the three stories above about the woman smothering their boyfriends they were definitely overpowering them to the point that they could not do a thing. Even when they were trying their very best to get out. Unlike blood chokes were you might “tap one tenth of a second too late” and be knocked out a smother will be slow and I am sure you would tap out like 25 times before passing out. In this case someone would really have to force you to be smothered and ignore all tapping.

2) I am not sure about chest squeezing KO's, I do not know a ton about them and I do not mess with stuff I am uncertain about. I do know it is dangerous to mess with the vagus nerve because it regulates heartbeat and muscle movement needed for breathing, which are two fundamental processes needed for survival. I would imagine people in poor health, with heart conditions, or sensitive vagus nerves would be most prone to a complication. I might try it someday if I find a woman willing to do it. Just so I can experience it and better understand it. I will never experiment with smothering/air chokes to the point of pass out. I may just try them to put myself near the limit, however, I will make sure to have safety measures in place so the woman knows when to stop smothering/air choking. Air chokes would have to be gentle on throat though to prevent injury. You could very well be correct “Raoul Fulgurex” about the vagus nerve because this knockout can occur in as little as 10 seconds so it most likely does not involve oxygen depletion like smothering. Unless the woman is squeezing your stomach so hard that you can't breath for 2-3 minutes kind of like an anaconda. Also ribs are somewhat fragile they do have movement but I have experienced broken ribs in a motocross accident and it is the worst pain I have ever felt every time I moved, breathed, laughed it hurt. I am sure a strong enough woman can break ribs if squeezing hard enough, the broken rib itself is probably not life threatening, however, if it punctures lungs and they collapse that is life threatening as well as a heart puncture or organ puncture. So just be careful not to have your ribs crushed at full force from a female capable of crushing ribs.

Also in relation to blood chokes. I have a feeling that it is easier to choke out skinny, tall, fit people that have a low blood pressure vs a person that is shorter, obese, that have a high blood pressure. Here is my reasoning. The blood choke relies on completely compressing the carotid arteries on both sides of the neck (the main arteries with a pulse on the neck on both sides of the trachea), If a person has a high blood pressure that means that the heart is pumping harder to move blood through the body so the blood is moving faster. I think of it as a garden hose if the water is turned on high then it is harder to compress the hose (high blood pressure). If the hose has water moving slowly then it is easier to compress the hose (low blood pressure). So in a person that has high blood pressure it might be a little more difficult to completely compress both carotid arteries. I am not 100% certain on this but I have noticed a trend. I am 6ft 3in in height and when I would do a ton of cardio and weighed 170 pounds I noticed I would almost faint when I stood up too quickly from the sofa. I had a low blood pressure. When I would hyperventilate, stand up quickly, and compress both arteries on my neck I passed out very quickly and without much effort. On the other hand, when I stopped cardio exercise, ate “junk” food and weighed 190 pounds with a higher blood pressure it was more difficult to knock myself out. As for being tall causing fainting more quickly I think it has to do with it taking a longer time for blood to reach the head in taller people. Again this is only a theory of mine. I am not 100% sure of its validity.
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Old 25-Jun-14, 02:44
Peter07 Peter07 is offline
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Default Re: The safety of smother KOs

Sorry about the big blocks of text, it took me a while to type all this stuff out, so I did not exactly break up the huge blocks of text into paragraphs, I also did not proof read so I apologize for any grammatical errors. I hope it is still readable without too much difficulty.
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Old 27-Jun-14, 14:47
meh985 meh985 is offline
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Default Re: The safety of smother KOs

When you're talking about smother KOs, the term you're looking for is cerebral hypoxia (low oxygen in the brain). Usually that's caused by stuff like smoke inhalation or carbon monoxide poisoning, but it's the same mechanics as a smother KO and doesn't involve the vagus nerve. Instead it's a gradual progression from a loopy feeling to fainting to coma; personally I'd stay the hell away from it, since unlike blood chokes there's not a clear point you should stop at. I mean, you should be perfectly fine for up to 2 minutes at least (barring rare medical conditions), but it's a real grey area.

Interesting tidbit: The world record for holding one's breath underwater is held by the French freediver Stéphane Mifsud, who lasted 11 minutes 35 seconds. (His lungs have been measured to hold nearly double the air of a average man)
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Old 27-Jun-14, 16:27
Peter07 Peter07 is offline
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Default Re: The safety of smother KOs

I am no expert but as far as I know, the exact mechanism is unknown. A theory is that when the carotid arteries on both sides of the neck are compressed, the baroreceptors of the carotid arteries (baroreceptors are sensors in the carotid arteries that regulate blood pressure) trick the body to think that the blood pressure has increased. The baroreceptors send this signal to the brain/heart through the vagus nerve. This causes the blood vessels in the brain to widen to compensate for the “fake” increase in blood pressure. The blood pressure really has not increased though because the body was only “tricked” into this by compressing carotid arteries and in turn affecting baroreceptors in carotid arteries. So the widening of the blood vessels causes a dramatic decrease in blood pressure to the brain, which causes a knockout by blood choke. (this can be explained by fluid dynamics and Bernoulli's equation). The baroreceptors in the carotid arteries main job is to maintain the blood pressure at an equilibrium (not fluctuating).

Think of it this way if you have a garden hose and a larger fire hose and you have the water at a certain same pressure for both of them the garden hose will be moving the water faster because it is more compressed. The same reason why when you put your thumb half way over a garden hose the water squirts out faster. In arteries the same principle applies a dilation/widening of the blood vessels slows the bloodflow (lower bloodpressure).

The vagus nerve runs alongside of the common carotid artery basically from the brain to the heart. Therefore, during a bloodchoke it is very possible that the vagus nerve gets somewhat compressed/disturbed. As far as safety I cannot say for certain. I do think that people with heart conditions, diabetes, overweight, have high blood pressure, atherosclerosis, smoke, elderly people are much more at risk from blood chokes. As far as I can tell MMA fighters and martial artists that are put out with blood chokes seem to handle them well. Of course, these people probably have excellent cardiovascular health.
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