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  #431  
Old 28-Oct-20, 22:09
uxiel uxiel is offline
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Default Re: Session rates are getting out of hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by London_Wrestler [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Unless I have misunderstood your point, you don't want session wrestlers to increase their rates by 50%-75% so how will they make more money?

If they decrease rates by 10% they will have to increase the number of sessions by 66% to make 50% more money.

90% of 1.666 = 1.5
These guys love multiplication. They think somehow there are going to be a ton of the guys crawling out of the woodwork to do sessions if you lower the price by $50-100, that they won't be more likely to no-show, that they'll eagerly send deposits, and that they'll conveniently have perfect schedules so that you can actually do 6-8 sessions each day.

I have no idea how many guys do sessions, but I highly doubt there are really that many in a non-major city. There are only finitely many men spending on this stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerCrushes [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
A session generally cost $300 in 2000. We did not have social media then, but we did have message board forums. Rarely did anyone bitch or complain about the cost. I'm not saying "no one" did, only that such whining wasn't common.

$300 in 2000 is about $450 in today's dollars, yet many providers are still charging $400 or less.
Right, the issue is (this is very apparent when reading posts from some of the complainers in this topic) that wages have been stagnant for people in average or below-average jobs, which has made many many people feel left behind. Rent has gone through the roof over that period, but most people's salaries haven't.

The growing wealth gap does cause problems, and this is beyond the pay grade of this board.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark.johnson21 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
When one charges an hourly rate that high, I really can't be sympathetic to their financial woes or how much work they deem acceptable in a given day. They could work 1-2 hours/day and still be doing financially better than 95% of the people in the country.

Don't care how that makes me sound.
Well, they're not. Outside of the top few, so many wrestlers would probably love to schedule 1-2 in a *week* to supplement their income. The work is not consistent. I've seen tours get cancelled. I've seen weekend trips to LA of all places get cancelled because the girl couldn't even get enough deposits to cover a hotel room. Turning this into a viable career takes far more work than just posting an ad up on sessiongirls. It's not as simple as your multiplication fantasies. There is a very finite supply of potential customers. This is not a service everyone needs or wants to have.

And they are doing better than maybe not 95% of people, but better than at least 50% or 60%. There are so many who are out of work, and don't have the looks, muscles, or wrestling skills to rely on this even for a little video work or onlyfans, let alone sessions. Many many people are struggling, many of them far worse than session wrestlers. It is possible to feel bad for more than one group of people. But unless you're far richer than even Jeff Bezos, you won't be able to support everyone. So you choose your battles. It is okay for us to feel bad for those with whom we've enjoyed time who are currently struggling.

Your approach of just walking away from sessions that you deem too expensive is perfectly reasonable. Posts like this show the disdain for the women you supposedly want to support. It's just sad.

Quote:
Making 50-75% more money could very easily increase the quality of their life.
It's evident all you care about is money. Money is not everything. Yes, they do their job for money, but that doesn't mean they'd work 16 hours a day if they could. There are a number of studies out there that say the improvement in your life starts to taper off after $70k or $90k or $100k or whatever that number is. I am one data point that turned down a more lucrative job working far longer hours in a more stressful city where I could have bought myself more luxuries, even retired earlier, but it's not for me, and it's not for everyone. Not everyone wants to burn the candle at both ends. There is no guarantee they'd make more by lowering prices. I suspect they'd have more no-shows since they'd be giving more attention to the cheaper folks.

We've even seen one example in the twitter thread of someone who appears to be working far longer hours. Megan Jones is constantly on tour, and many people have guessed she's just constantly angry because she's burned out from always being on the road. No idea how much work she gets, and it's none of my business, but some people want a simple life they can enjoy, and aren't workaholics.
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  #432  
Old 28-Oct-20, 23:51
mark.johnson21 mark.johnson21 is offline
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Default Re: Session rates are getting out of hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by London_Wrestler [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Unless I have misunderstood your point, you don't want session wrestlers to increase their rates by 50%-75% so how will they make more money?

If they decrease rates by 10% they will have to increase the number of sessions by 66% to make 50% more money.

90% of 1.666 = 1.5
Regarding how they will make more money -- just about every business in existence offers discounts and sales to get more customers in the door. They wouldn't do it if it didn't generate more money than not doing it. Yes, it means more work. But so what? The point is more money.

Same principle applies to session wrestlers who don't feel they're making enough because they aren't getting enough clients.
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  #433  
Old 29-Oct-20, 00:13
London_Wrestler London_Wrestler is offline
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Default Re: Session rates are getting out of hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark.johnson21 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Regarding how they will make more money -- just about every business in existence offers discounts and sales to get more customers in the door. They wouldn't do it if it didn't generate more money than not doing it. Yes, it means more work. But so what? The point is more money.

Same principle applies to session wrestlers who don't feel they're making enough because they aren't getting enough clients.
Because that's not how it is being framed.

The whingers are saying "The prices they charge are outrageous. If they lowered them, I'd get my wrestling in for less money; and, billy bonus for the wrestlers: Loads more cheapskates would come out of the woodwork and book sessions at the lower rate. What's not to love?!"


The session providers could just increase their rates to earn x% more rather then lowering them; and, you have to agree, the choice of which pricing strategy to adopt belongs to the session provider alone.

No amount of complaining about how expensive it is has the slightest relevance whatsoever.

Last edited by London_Wrestler; 29-Oct-20 at 00:20. Reason: Punctuation to make it proper England innit.
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  #434  
Old 29-Oct-20, 00:25
mark.johnson21 mark.johnson21 is offline
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Default Re: Session rates are getting out of hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by uxiel [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
The work is not consistent. I've seen tours get cancelled.

It is okay for us to feel bad for those with whom we've enjoyed time who are currently struggling.

Posts like this show the disdain for the women you supposedly want to support. It's just sad.

Yes, they do their job for money, but that doesn't mean they'd work 16 hours a day if they could.

There is no guarantee they'd make more by lowering prices.
Their work isn't consistent? Gee. Wonder if charging $300-500 for one hour of time has something to do with that.

So, they're only getting 1-2 sessions a week, but you're arguing that they don't want to work 16 hours/day? Well, sounds like they really don't have that problem. Sounds like their problem is they don't have enough clients. Again, wonder if charging $300-500/hr has something to do with that.

Again with the misogyny accusation? Look, just because you're falling in love with these women who are looking at you as nothing more than a business transaction does not mean I'm falling in love with them. I have the same attitude towards anybody (male or female) charging extremely high hourly rates and then getting upset that they're not getting enough clients -- that goes for male lawyers, therapists, trainers, photographers, etc... It's business. They do something for us so long as we pay them for it. That's it. There's no mutual emotional connection.

I'm supporting them by booking sessions, but it's not my goal or obligation in life to support them, just as it's not their goal in life to support me. They're not our wives or our family members. They're self-employed ass-kicking, independent women who are willing to do a few things for us on the one condition that we pay them several hundred dollars per hour.

If caring about myself more than them is misogynist, then their caring about themselves more than us would be misandrist. But that's total BS. It's got nothing to do with gender. It's business.
  #435  
Old 29-Oct-20, 00:53
Chris097 Chris097 is offline
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Default Re: Session rates are getting out of hand

Lowering your price doesn't magically create new customers. It's about attracting business that would otherwise go to other girls, "stealing customers" if you want.

Looking at London, for example. I've seen prices from 150£ up to 350€ in Europe. Let's take a girl at 200£. If she decreases her price to 150£, she could:
1) attract the guy, that's usually spending more, because he realizes he can do a double session for the same price and wants to try it out. Or just session 2 hours for the same price (at 200 she's still cheaper ofc, but double/half price is probably psychological more signaling)
2) attract the guy that usually pays 100£ for escorts, because he is fine with paying 50£ more for a better quality.
3) attract the guy that visits a 200£ Domina because he's lately very into wrestling and can get a better fitting product for less.


And so on. The posters before are very right saying the supply of customers is very limited. If you're the cheapest (which is 150£ here), you can fight about the guys with small budget.
Just look in a supermarket: There's people buying quality because they have the money, and people buying no matter what, just needs to be the cheapest package of rice.
Competition is a very important factor, that's why 20£ more or less can actually really lead to a bigger increase in work than you might expect in that case. (going bottom, from 170£ to 150£. From 250£ to 230£ has less impact, I'm sure).

The girls will need to experiment with this and position themselves in the market. Some are more happy with selling a premium product (which requires more work for communication, marketing, social media presence etc) and some are happy focusing on the sessions and not do much else, resulting in having to charge less. In reality, both ways could very well lead to the same income at same time spent.


What I obviously don't like (as a customer) is the increases I showed in the last post. If all girls in one place increase from 150 to 200 at the same time, that disables the competition. There's a reason why companies would get into trouble for that.

In my opinion we would profit (as customers, more specific as customers looking for cheaper sessions) from transparent prices, as
1) it's easy to pick the cheapest session, which increases competition
2) girls can't charge different people different prices (not talking about travel price differences obviously)
3) harder for girls to increase prices

Obviously, what's good for customers isn't good for the seller in this case, that's why most don't make their prices public.

The only group of girls that would actually profit are the ones in the lower price tiers, because they could attract guys from the higher priced girls.
And all would profit from having less mails, but that's not a too strong argument.

The girls increasing from 150 to 200 have a very good base to compare if they're better off after that then before. If they are, the prices will stay, if no, they'll revert.
Nothing we can do about that, the only thing we as customers can do is to create the mentioned transparency about prices.
I know that many feel that publishing prices is not fair against the girl, but I'm not sure why you think so. They sell a service, others want to buy that service and customers should know the prices of alternatives to make a decision.
Why do you think price comparison websites exist for literally everything nowadays?

Last edited by Chris097; 29-Oct-20 at 01:03.
  #436  
Old 29-Oct-20, 01:15
uxiel uxiel is offline
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Default Re: Session rates are getting out of hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark.johnson21 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Their work isn't consistent? Gee. Wonder if charging $300-500 for one hour of time has something to do with that.

So, they're only getting 1-2 sessions a week, but you're arguing that they don't want to work 16 hours/day? Well, sounds like they really don't have that problem. Sounds like their problem is they don't have enough clients. Again, wonder if charging $300-500/hr has something to do with that.

Again with the misogyny accusation? Look, just because you're falling in love with these women who are looking at you as nothing more than a business transaction does not mean I'm falling in love with them. I have the same attitude towards anybody (male or female) charging extremely high hourly rates and then getting upset that they're not getting enough clients -- that goes for male lawyers, therapists, trainers, photographers, etc... It's business. They do something for us so long as we pay them for it. That's it. There's no mutual emotional connection.

I'm supporting them by booking sessions, but it's not my goal or obligation in life to support them, just as it's not their goal in life to support me. They're not our wives or our family members. They're self-employed ass-kicking, independent women who are willing to do a few things for us on the one condition that we pay them several hundred dollars per hour.

If caring about myself more than them is misogynist, then their caring about themselves more than us would be misandrist. But that's total BS. It's got nothing to do with gender. It's business.
Do you have any evidence at all that there is enough demand at any price range (let's say at least $100/hour) to line 4+ guys/day to wrestle you? We'll go with a range of cities the girl happens to live in: Los Angeles, Las Vegas, St. Louis, Nashville, Chicago. This is not a regular store where you might have hundreds of customers walking in every day. This is one woman. She cannot scale the way a business with dozens or hundreds of employees can. Your analogies are broken. You will not get cheaper sessions by taking this to page 50.

I would bet in most cities the amount of demand at $350 is similar enough to that at $400, so they'll take the higher pay to meet clients who are (probably) more pleasant. And in either case, they'll likely have to work other jobs as well. They often work in related areas, such as video sales, webcam, modeling, etc. Some even have typical office jobs.

Let's make this clear. For most of these women, the optimization goal is not to maximize income. The goal is to make a decent or good income and live an enjoyable life. Many non-Americans view our lifestyle as work-first and toxic. You are the perfect representation of that.

There are similar claims of limited work from girls charging $300 and girls charging $500. This is a very small community. It's not a way to get rich. As Chris aptly said, lowering your price doesn't magically create new customers.

The misogyny is in exactly what I quoted:

Quote:
When one charges an hourly rate that high, I really can't be sympathetic to their financial woes or how much work they deem acceptable in a given day. They could work 1-2 hours/day and still be doing financially better than 95% of the people in the country.

Don't care how that makes me sound.
So maybe you just have disdain for anyone who earns a high hourly rate. This is not an office job where you show up to the office, dick around for 5 hours, work for 3 hours, and go home. It's a job where they may have to commute an hour each way to work an hour, and cover their own health insurance, and be thrown under the bus and ignored, not receiving any government assistance in many cases when we have a crisis like the present one. And they need to keep their bodies in tip-top shape while hopefully not getting injured (and hoping they don't need to deal with the financial aspects of the American healthcare system, for those of them living in the US) or they lose customers or can't work for months while recovering. You have no sympathy for their financial problems, and not many here have sympathy for yours.

Last edited by uxiel; 29-Oct-20 at 01:20.
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  #437  
Old 29-Oct-20, 02:48
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InTheFlesh86 InTheFlesh86 is offline
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Default Re: Session rates are getting out of hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by uxiel [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
It's a job where they may have to commute an hour each way to work an hour, and cover their own health insurance, and be thrown under the bus and ignored, not receiving any government assistance in many cases when we have a crisis like the present one. And they need to keep their bodies in tip-top shape while hopefully not getting injured (and hoping they don't need to deal with the financial aspects of the American healthcare system, for those of them living in the US) or they lose customers or can't work for months while recovering. You have no sympathy for their financial problems, and not many here have sympathy for yours.
Wow! I check out for a few weeks and apparently we're still stuck on this.

My friend, you seem to be incapable of objectively addressing this issue without constantly appealing to your emotions, personal politics, and your ostensible contempt for numerous aspects of American life. This thread could have been an interesting thought experiment, but you have insisted on adopting the uncompromising position that any proposal to lower the cost of sessions can be nothing more than a sexist, selfish, and contemptuous effort to undermine and lower the standard of living for these women, who you invariably perceive as the downtrodden victims suffering under the boot of an evil and oppressive American economic system.

Your constant appeals to work/life balance, living standards, healthcare, coronavirus, and politics, while worthwhile topics in their own right, serve as nothing more than emotionally laden red herrings to an otherwise interesting economic discussion. Your moral preferences have no bearing on how to maximize one's wealth (regardless of whether you think this should be a priority), nor on the mechanics of supply and demand that are currently in play in the US economy whether you like them or not.

I just wanted you to know that you are the reason why I stopped reading this thread. In my opinion, your heated rhetoric and general argumentative style (the majority of your posts) have contributed to making this forum less enjoyable than it once was. Stop...go make some picture contributions or something
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  #438  
Old 29-Oct-20, 03:10
hawk_eye hawk_eye is offline
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Default Re: Session rates are getting out of hand

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Originally Posted by InTheFlesh86 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
you seem to be incapable of objectively addressing this issue without constantly appealing to your emotions, personal politics, and your ostensible contempt for numerous aspects of American life.
And when that fails he'll just make up shit on the fly to try and give substance to the avalanche of lunatic rantings he floods this board with.
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  #439  
Old 29-Oct-20, 03:52
uxiel uxiel is offline
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Default Re: Session rates are getting out of hand

The issue in this thread has become either (a) I know more about the market than the wrestlers and think they should lower prices and work a lot more so they can make a little more money, or (b) you guys willing to pay $400 are ruining it for everyone else, everyone should be able to session. I recognize what a lot of people are going through. Session girls are not the only ones impacted, and they're not being oppressed by evil American economics, or whatever you think I believe. There are a lot of people going through far worse situations than session girls. It's okay to feel some sympathy for session girls, and for other people as well. It does turn out that discussion here frequently revolves around the session girls.

If $400 is too much, don't do the session. It's pretty simple.

I fully support some of the complaints from the beginning of the thread, about new girls charging $500 or $700 without being proven talents. Most likely they won't last very long if they don't have the talent to back up the price.

There is a feature to ignore specific users if my posts are ruining your internet experience that much.
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  #440  
Old 29-Oct-20, 04:11
mark.johnson21 mark.johnson21 is offline
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Default Re: Session rates are getting out of hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by uxiel [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
They'll take the higher pay to meet clients who are (probably) more pleasant.

For most of these women, the optimization goal is not to maximize income. The goal is to make a decent or good income and live an enjoyable life. Many non-Americans view our lifestyle as work-first and toxic. You are the perfect representation of that.

lowering your price doesn't magically create new customers.

The misogyny is in exactly what I quoted:

So maybe you just have disdain for anyone who earns a high hourly rate. This is not an office job where you show up to the office, dick around for 5 hours, work for 3 hours, and go home. You have no sympathy for their financial problems, and not many here have sympathy for yours.
"clients who are (probably) more pleasant."
You're incorrectly assuming that you know how I behave when I'm in a session. If I behaved poorly towards a session wrestler, my references wouldn't check out and I wouldn't get more sessions. But that isn't the case.

"For most of these women, the optimization is not to maximize income."
You are in no position to speak for most or any of these women. The last session wrestler I saw (three weeks ago) said she works 80 hour weeks doing sessions, niteflirt phone chats, custom video fetish work, and anything else she can get because she wants to make as much as she can while there's a high demand for work.

"You are the perfect representation of the American lifestyle as toxic."
I guess that also includes the session wrestler working 80 hour weeks, huh? And anybody who works overtime, regardless of whether or not they have kids to feed, college tuition to pay, a down payment of a house to save up for, difficulty making ends meet, etc... You seem to be under the delusion that we all have plenty of money in our accounts already and therefore don't have to work that hard to get by.

"Lowering your price doesn't magically create new customers."
But you think keeping the price the same when you have almost no customers as it is does? Okay... You are aware that many session wrestlers on Twitter complain of guys asking them to negotiate for lower prices, right? I mean, Megan Jones is notorious for it and even did so again a few hours ago. Surely she's not the only one, which means there are obviously a lot of guys trying to negotiate with the session wrestlers because they feel the rates are too high. Many would be actual paying customers if the rates were lower. I've been told about 80% of guys contacting them are time wasters. That % might go down if their rates were lower.

"The misogyny is in exactly what I quoted."
I specifically did not mention anything gender specific in there. Which means you're assuming that I don't think the same of men who also charge exorbitant rates for their services, whatever it might be. I think of both the same. You just want to believe I'm misogynist so you can write my opinion off instead of acknowledging that you may not win this argument. You've tried that like 5x now.

"So maybe you just have disdain for anyone who earns a high hourly rate."
I earn a high hourly rate. So, wrong again. I just don't sympathize with the financial woes of those who charge what I consider unreasonably high rates, regardless of the service. And I wouldn't blame someone who charges less than I do to not sympathize with my financial problems.

"This is not an office job."
Dude, I'm the one that's self-employed, not you, so don't be telling me. My work situation is extremely similar to that of session wrestlers because I'm also self-employed, which means I also have no paid health insurance, paid sick leave, paid days off, or paid vacation. My work is also very physical and an injury could put me out of work for quite awhile -- and since I'm self-employed, I wouldn't qualify for unemployment benefits. There was a pretty large start-up cost to get the necessary gear I needed which meant I was operating on a loss for awhile. Clients frequently pull no-shows or last minute BS which is why I always take a deposit for every gig I get. I drive 2-3 hours a day to work 1-7 gigs per day, 6-7 days per week, and I work that much because I need the money to afford a house I'm trying to save for (the down payment and closing costs alone are $60k) on top of all the bills and business expenses I regularly incur. And one thing you clearly don't understand is that every self-employed worker regardless of profession will tell you that work can dry up at any time, which is why we always take as many gigs as possible when they're available. You work a ton in the good months so that you don't starve in the slow months -- and it's in the slow months where you relax and live your life more. The timetable for when life is lived and enjoyed is just different for self-employed workers than it is for others.

"You have no sympathy for their financial problems."
We are under no obligation to be sympathetic and they have never asked us to be. So why are you? Do you really think they have sympathy for your financial problems or any of ours? Because they don't. Maybe this is unfathomable to you, but they're not in this line of work because they want to make friends with strange men with weird fetishes on the internet (i.e. us). They would never give you their time if you weren't paying for it. I'm sorry, but regardless of how intimate they may get with you in a session, you're still a guy they know virtually nothing about who they are either meeting for the first time or have met a handful of times... but always for money. Any impression they give you of genuine mutual interest is so that you'll book another session and give them more business. They "like" you because you'll pay them. Unless you're personally into financial domination, I don't get why their financial situation is something you would in any way care about when they clearly don't care about yours. Their financial problems are none of your business. And if they actually try to make it important to someone they barely know, again, it's because they want you to give them more money.

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