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#411
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Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?
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For example I'm positive that the vast majority of human population would lose to guys like Hafthor Bjorsson or Eddie Hall no matter how technical they can become. What I'm saying is that just because you escaped from one single technique it doesn't necessarily mean the difference between you and that guy was an insormountable one, I mean it could be the case but it's not a guarantee, it's just an assumption. It would be like telling a boxer "hey hit me with a right cross when I say go" and then dodging it, sure it's impressive but it doesn't mean you would necessarily be able to beat him in a full fledged fight. You speak about how since he is a vegan is bones and tendons must be so frail that he could literally break in half, but honestly it seem like an exagerration to me. If he was so sickly and frail he would not be able to practice the sport for years in the first place. However if the strenght difference was really insourmountable he must really be insanely weak to the point of being in the bottom 0,1% of the population or something, considering that you are no strongman but just a 170 lbs with a 115 kg bench press, which is sure well above average and impressiv but it's nothing that should be insourmuntable even for guys who are weaker than average. Out of curiosity, do you believe he is weaker than the average girl or woman? Quote:
However just because you are great athlete it doesn't mean have are good fighting istincts and iq, they don't always go hand in hand. I point you once again to the footage of two elite professional soccer player punching each other in a ridicolous way like girly girl. Don't you that a trained average joe would be able to clinch them and take them down without getting knocked out? I think so. Case in point you were able to avoid the moves of that fat guy also because you had good insticts and fight qi and a fighter mindset, which should come to no surpirse since you spent all of your life thinking about fighting, watching fighting, training boxing, playfighting with your friends etc.... A professional athlete who may have never tought about violence and fighiting a single day in his life may be caught off guard by a far more experienced average joe when he is put in a situation he in unfamilar with. This more likely when we talk about female athletes because, well, females usually have zero interest in fighting. Another objection is that you can't make an universal assumption on the base of one single case, it's really an huge leap of logic to say "technique can only work if the athleticism of the two inviduals is comparable" just because once you were able to stop a random blue belt from a random dojo of unknow quality to submit you. (And in fact, my personal experience tell a very different story) We don't know how good the technique of that fat guy was, if he was more athletic he would have caught you, yes, but maybe he could have also caught you if he had the same poor athleticism but better technique. Technique is something that has many layers and levels of detail, and the more sopistichated it is the more difficult is to see it coming and stop it on istinct. It's not just about the most visible stuff like knowing how to execute a certain sweep or submission, far from it. For example an essential part of what we call "technique" is using proper set-ups to make moves less telegraphed as possible, and it's something much harder to learn than just spamming the move and hoping you are faster than your opponent like beginners usually do. Eg. There is a world of difference between swinging you legs over for an armbar (giving the to an opponent with fast reflexes the opportunity to see it coming and remove his arm) or setting it up with small adjustement that prevent the opponent from pulling his arm out even if he see it coming. I have the feeling that you give too much universal importance to one single personal experience and you over-simplify the matter a lot, because since you never trained grappling (no, 4 lesson at a local mcdojo don't count XD) you are not familiar with how nuanced and sophisticated it can be and when you see technique fail you just go with "ah, it failed, so it can't possibly work with those two people involved" and you don't recognize if and how things could have been done more efficiently and with an higher percentage of success. Last edited by Elbow Escape; 23-May-21 at 04:47. |
#412
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Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?
Saturday my GF was hired to mud wrestle a guy at his 20 years birthday. He was tall but thin/average I guess about 190 cm and about 75 kg. My GF is 175 cm and weights 77-78 kg and do crossfit and have good wrestling experiences. She easy defeated him with about 10-0 in 15 minutes fighting. She could have scored a lot more submissions but she played with him and let him escape from some scissors and not press with all her strength. After that she fought against some other guy and 2 girls in one-submission fights. She won vs 5 or 6 guys and the 2 girls but lost to 3 of the guys.
Next saturday my GF is going to fight a guy to his polterabend. |
#413
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Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?
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#414
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Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?
No its not for business, most of all for fun, but she gets paid, when she do this. And rules is no filming and pictures, while its not good for her job. My job is to secure no one filming, and of cause I like to see her wrestle.
Added after 11 minutes: And the polterabend was not a great succes while the groom did not find mud wrestling fun at all, so my GF only wrestled with him for short time. But then instead she also wrestled with some of the other guys, who liked it. And she won 4 and lost 5. One of her wins was a triangle vs a much bigger guy, and in that fight my GF was in defence and difficulties for a long time. Last edited by bennys; 13-Jul-21 at 15:32. |
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#415
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Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?
Friday night my gf and two other girls from our crossfit club fought vs some student guys at about 17-19 years in duels standing on small platforms and hit the opponent down with pillow on a stick. They fight vs. 14 guys and won 37 fights and lost 5. First 4 girls from the school competed and told the gyus to take part and compete with 3 strong girls, but the guys then did not knew, that it was not girls from the school and they might get surprised and a little confused when my gf and two other girls from the crossfit club were presented wearing sexy christmas costume.
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#416
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Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?
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"130 lbs trained women" and "200 lbs men that work out" are extremely broad categories, there are truly immense disparites among the members of this two groups in factors such as actuall skills and technical knowlegde, strenght to weight ratio, speed, explosiveness, reflexes, coordination and body awareness, fighting intelligence and overall talent etc.... I agree that your average female BJJ brown/black belt (as in with average strenght, speed, reflexes and other physical attributes) would very likely lose to a fit 200 lbs untrained man who work out not matter how technical she is. However there is truly an immense gulf between your average BJJ black belt and an elite, world classe female athlete, and there are of course countless of intermediary leves between them. The higher her level is, the more plausible a win become. Take for example Gabi Garcia, she is a 6'1 220-250 lbs muscular roided freak who is way stronger than the vast majority of men, and she is a BJJ black belt with decades of grappling experience on top of that: Yet she still suffered several losses against regular looking girl 50-100 lbs lighter than her, for example: [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] And the girl who competes at the highest level in BJJ are not even world class atheles, they are very far from it, since it's a very niche sport where very few women competes. If a girl can beat Gabi Garcia, there is no reason to assume she can't beat most 200 lbs unskilled men who work out too. Of course the girls who can do that are very few and far between but it's not like they don't exist, and their level is tipically much higher than what you can find in session wrestlers and fetish videos. Quote:
This doesn't necessarily mean that they could not win, just that it would be too risky to try in training. Big guys are told to not spaz out in training against smaller me too, but it's not like small guys can't beat big guys. Quote:
Because I was very unimpressed and she didn't seem particularly good in this video. Put this guy against a girl such as Bea Mesquita and she would tap him out in 30 seconds without breaking a sweat. That's what I meant when I talked about different levels, this Ariel X may be skilled enough to beat similar sized untrained men and that's enough to impress most people, but there are many girls that completely blow her out of the water out there. Anyway this board is full of countless examples of girls defeating men with a size difference even bigger than this one in 100% real matches from sanctioned grappling competitions, and they are not even high level girls but they are usually just unknown amateurs. Quote:
Anyway I think you are giving too much importance to size and stenght, BJJ techniques are very effective for overcoming an huge strenght disadvatange altough there are still limits. Take for example this 125 lbs guy easily tapping a 200+ lbs muscular man: [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] I know it's man vs man, but they are both experienced grapplers too. Are you sure a 130 lbs girl like Valentina Shevchenko would not be strong and skilled enough to do the same to an inexperienced 200 lbs gymrat? Keep in mind that to break free from an armbar with raw strenght you need to bicep curl more than your opponent can deadlift, and plenty of small high level female athletes can easily deadlift more than 200-300 lbs. I'm a 130 lbs trained guy and I have personally beaten several 200 lbs unskilled guys who were pretty athletic both in BJJ and a couple times in actual fights too, and I know for a fact there are girls stronger, faster and more skilled than me out there who could do the same. Another very important point to talk about are heel hooks. They are by far the most effective techniques to overcome an huge size and strenght gap, which has been proven to death in open weight MMA fights and BJJ matches for decades. However they are extremely dangerous so you will never see them used in fetish videos or by session wrestlers against their customers (they can your knee out and cripple you before they make you feel pain, so an unskilled guy would not recognize the danger and tap in time). That's why using fetish video as a point of reference for "limits of technique vs strenght" is misleading, because the most effective technique of them all can't be used in such format. A girl who specialize in leglocks can overcame a much greater size and strenght difference than a girl with "old school BJJ training" who doesn't train heel hooks. If you don't know about their effectivess, you can watch 150 lbs Lachlan Giles defeating 260 lbs BJJ black belt world champions at the highest level competiton with them: [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] And this if you want to see how dangerous they are: [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] Bottom line is that a 130 lbs girl beating a 200+ strong and fit guy is very rare but it's not outright impossible, it can still happen given the right pairing. Eg. a female olympic wrestler or UFC fighter vs a very big and strong man who has little to no skills and who is not an elite athlete in his own right, or an elite submission grappler who is an heel hook specialist vs a big guy who has no clue how to properly defend heel hooks and so on. Last edited by Elbow Escape; 07-Feb-22 at 07:01. |
#417
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Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?
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The average female brown belt/black belt 130 pound vs a fit 200 pound male was really the only point I was making and you agree so I'm not sure why the long response. You took it so many different places that I had no interest in going. You're literally arguing points I never made lol. There's real clips of strength mattering as well. Here's a top strongman completely untrained going against a BJJ Black Belt: [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]. Judging from the novel you wrote me you've probably already seen it. The black belt taps from pressure. Were really going to act like when they have open weight grappling that usually someone in the top 3 highest weight classes win? We going to act like Gabi Garcia's whole career isn't shrouded in claims of steroids, fake fights and people wondering what her actual grappling ability is (not to mention her moving like a stiff board)? The fact that we're pulling crazy clips that aren't the norm and you're bringing up world class fighters and Olympians should let you know my general point is right. You're right that there's nuance to this conversation but not nearly as much as you make it sound like. Strength is very important. Overall skill is very important. Conditioning may be more important than both of them. They all matter and to act like strength is negligible is hilarious. This will be my last reply to you. I don't care about this the same way you do. Just make up some more points I never said and argue by yourself again lol. Last edited by progmuze; 07-Feb-22 at 11:52. |
#418
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Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?
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You just stated that "if someone believe a 130 lbs trained girl can beat a 200 lbs man he is delusional" and I replied that it's untrue, it's still possibile depending on who they are. So I agree with your general point but I just pointed out there are exceptions. By the way UFC fighters and olympians were just an extreme example to better drive the point home, a trained girl doesn't necessarily need to be THAT good, even tough she still need to be considerably above average. Do you agree with it? P.S: Yes, I already saw the video of Hafthor vs a BJJ black belt. I already addressed that technique can overcame huge strenght disadvantages but there are still limits, and putting literally the strongest man in the world vs an average man is one of those limits. Speaking of that you may also find interesting this video of Hafthor rolling with Gunnar Nelson in case you haven't already watched it: [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] Quote:
On the contray I said that some high level trained women could beat some big and strong untrained men because those women are BOTH very skilled and very strong (even 115 lbs female UFC fighters can lift more than the average man), so despite still being weaker the strenght difference would not be so large that skills could not bridge the gap. On the other hand most female BJJ black belts would fail because they are not strong enough. Quote:
Last edited by Elbow Escape; 07-Feb-22 at 12:17. |
#419
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Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?
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[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] She was just a blue belt at the time, and it definitely shows by the way she grappled. This pretty much explain why she made so many mistakes and missed so many opportunities (which is pretty normal for a blue belt), and ultimately why she struggled so much with a similar opponent. Last edited by Elbow Escape; 08-Feb-22 at 06:47. |
#420
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Re: How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?
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Last edited by ....; 28-Feb-22 at 13:52. |
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