How common and realistic is it for a woman to be stronger than a man?

[del]

Originally Posted by Ben88i9 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

it's not bad faith to point out that the vast majority of men are stronger than women. this has been reinforced by scientific studied countless times. even athletic women lift less than untrained average guys.

now can women with proficient martial arts training handle herself? no doubt. but without such training, even being athletic and larger than average for a woman still puts her at a disadvantage.

Another issue that resurfaces time and again is the issue of the average vs the range of variability. Or if we take the question in the subject line, it is not very common for a woman to be stronger than a man, but it is completely realistic. It happens. Some people prefer to think principally in terms of the average or the general. Some people are interested in exploring the very real, but uncommon cases. Others enjoy pure fantasy.

I'm one who is interested in the real, but uncommon cases. And maybe those cases aren't so uncommon for someone my size. I'm smaller than average for a man at 5'7" with a smallish non-athletic body type, though I have always exercised regularly.

I've met some interesting above average women in my time. One was a friend's girlfriend (call her Diane) who was no more than 5'3". She was unusually muscular looking and strong, although she swore that she never did any strength training (She didn't need to. She had a brother who was a real beast and he didn't train either). I was in reasonably good shape when I armwrestled her one day in front of some housemates. She used no technique, but just plain pushed my arm down with brute force. She had on a halter top and I wore a t-shirt. My housemates said that when she started pushing her arm and shoulder just exploded and clearly looked bigger and stronger than mine. I was too busy struggling to notice. None of them would challenge her after that.

Diane also entered a mud wrestling contest at a bar. Her opponent was a larger woman about my size who looked quite fit. When the match started, Diane muscled the larger woman all over the mud pit, but couldn't quite pin her. After a couple of minutes, Diane got gassed and the other woman was able to prevail. Afterwards she said she had never wrestled anyone as strong as Diane and she could do nothing but try to take advantage of her muddy slipperiness to avoid being pinned. I wrestled Diane once and the story was similar. Neither of us had any wrestling technique, and I was just drunk enough to have gained the courage and lost the inhibitions to wrestle her. I poured everything into pinning her. I managed to get my weight on her, but she was too strong for me to make any headway. Her body was hard like heated rocks as she fought, but my combined weight and strength were too much for her to reverse. She gave one massive heave that almost dislodged me, but then she was spent and I pinned her. We shook hands and she congratulated me, looking exhausted and a bit surprised.

So it seems that in terms of brute strength, Diane may have been stronger than me, but her heart and lungs didn't have the capacity keep up with the continuing demands of those powerful muscles. We found something similar when riding bikes. She had ample power and speed initially, but her boyfriend and I could pull ahead as she ran out of steam. Her female disadvantage was not strength, but cardio.

[Ben88i9]

Originally Posted by del [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

Another issue that resurfaces time and again is the issue of the average vs the range of variability. Or if we take the question in the subject line, it is not very common for a woman to be stronger than a man, but it is completely realistic. It happens. Some people prefer to think principally in terms of the average or the general. Some people are interested in exploring the very real, but uncommon cases. Others enjoy pure fantasy.

I'm one who is interested in the real, but uncommon cases. And maybe those cases aren't so uncommon for someone my size. I'm smaller than average for a man at 5'7" with a smallish non-athletic body type, though I have always exercised regularly.

I've met some interesting above average women in my time. One was a friend's girlfriend (call her Diane) who was no more than 5'3". She was unusually muscular looking and strong, although she swore that she never did any strength training (She didn't need to. She had a brother who was a real beast and he didn't train either). I was in reasonably good shape when I armwrestled her one day in front of some housemates. She used no technique, but just plain pushed my arm down with brute force. She had on a halter top and I wore a t-shirt. My housemates said that when she started pushing her arm and shoulder just exploded and clearly looked bigger and stronger than mine. I was too busy struggling to notice. None of them would challenge her after that.

Diane also entered a mud wrestling contest at a bar. Her opponent was a larger woman about my size who looked quite fit. When the match started, Diane muscled the larger woman all over the mud pit, but couldn't quite pin her. After a couple of minutes, Diane got gassed and the other woman was able to prevail. Afterwards she said she had never wrestled anyone as strong as Diane and she could do nothing but try to take advantage of her muddy slipperiness to avoid being pinned. I wrestled Diane once and the story was similar. Neither of us had any wrestling technique, and I was just drunk enough to have gained the courage and lost the inhibitions to wrestle her. I poured everything into pinning her. I managed to get my weight on her, but she was too strong for me to make any headway. Her body was hard like heated rocks as she fought, but my combined weight and strength were too much for her to reverse. She gave one massive heave that almost dislodged me, but then she was spent and I pinned her. We shook hands and she congratulated me, looking exhausted and a bit surprised.

So it seems that in terms of brute strength, Diane may have been stronger than me, but her heart and lungs didn't have the capacity keep up with the continuing demands of those powerful muscles. We found something similar when riding bikes. She had ample power and speed initially, but her boyfriend and I could pull ahead as she ran out of steam. Her female disadvantage was not strength, but cardio.

outliers exist. of course. but they are well outside the norm. i would say your experience is indeed uncommon, because most 5"7 men are stronger than women, even the athletic ones. I needn't refer again to the countless studies showing averave men being stronger than female athletes

your anecdote is interesting though. food for thought.

I don't deny these things happen.

[pinme]

This seems like a good time to repost this:

Well, if you look at the study - [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] - and do the math, this thread is only beginning of the discussion.

Of course, men are stronger on average. But, using the mean and sd from this report, and using a normal distribution, you come up with the following:

In upper body strength, the top 5% of women are stronger than the bottom 5% of men, and the top 2% of women are stronger than the bottom 15% of men.

In lower body strength, the top 15% of women are stronger than the bottom 15% of men, and the top 2% of women are stronger than the bottom 25% of men.

In ab strength, the top 25% of women are stronger than the bottom 25% of men, and the top 2% of women and stronger half of all men.

The top 2% of women in the US is about 3 million women. That’s a lot of women stronger than a lot of men.

And some session women are perhaps in the top 2% of the top 2% which is still 60,000 women.

And I can add anecdotally that I am above average on all of the lifts listed in the report, and there are many session women that are much stronger than I am.

[del]

Originally Posted by Ben88i9 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

outliers exist. of course. but they are well outside the norm. i would say your experience is indeed uncommon, because most 5"7 men are stronger than women, even the athletic ones. I needn't refer again to the countless studies showing averave men being stronger than female athletes

your anecdote is interesting though. food for thought.

I don't deny these things happen.

In another thread I posted about Sarah Reasoner, the female firefighter who placed fifth in a national firefighters "strongman" competition. The fact that these women are far above average doesn't tell us much about how common they are. If Diane was in the 99th percentile, that means that there could be one woman like her in every hundred. How many hundred women are there in the world? Suppose the firefighter is one in a thousand or even 100 thousand. How many thousand women are there in the world? I think using the term "outliers" actually tends to make such people seem like unicorns, rather than simply being at the top end of a normal distribution. So, although they are uncommon, I would not call them outliers. And I think these uncommon cases are the most interesting.

Added after 8 minutes:

Originally Posted by pinme [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

This seems like a good time to repost this:

Well, if you look at the study - [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] - and do the math, this thread is only beginning of the discussion.

Of course, men are stronger on average. But, using the mean and sd from this report, and using a normal distribution, you come up with the following:

In upper body strength, the top 5% of women are stronger than the bottom 5% of men, and the top 2% of women are stronger than the bottom 15% of men.

In lower body strength, the top 15% of women are stronger than the bottom 15% of men, and the top 2% of women are stronger than the bottom 25% of men.

In ab strength, the top 25% of women are stronger than the bottom 25% of men, and the top 2% of women and stronger half of all men.

The top 2% of women in the US is about 3 million women. That’s a lot of women stronger than a lot of men.

And some session women are perhaps in the top 2% of the top 2% which is still 60,000 women.

And I can add anecdotally that I am above average on all of the lifts listed in the report, and there are many session women that are much stronger than I am.

Could you provide a better link, or just the reference to the article? Thanks!

[pinme]

Ah - the link has expired. Sorry. Not sure how to find it anymore.

[BigBanana]

it's realistic. i'm living it right now. girl i met on line.... powerlifter, can outlift me and can pin me wrestling competitively. easily. i'm 5'8 210 but no match or her strength. she's 5'6 185. maybe i should post stories in the stories section

[Ryan Futuristics]

Way more common than people realise.

I read studies, and check the Strength Standards pages .. I think there must be huge sample bias – and most studies are unreproducible anyway.

I did read a study on college speed cyclists that was surprised to find a girl or two smashing the male participants on leg extensions/press and hamstring curls .. But as someone who lives at the gym, I see new members struggling with very low weights, and female regulars who must be in the region of twice as strong on compound lifts

[Cavanaugh29]

Size is strength, to a large extent. A fit 5'4" 115lb woman has no chance against a fit 6'2" 215lb man (which makes stories/scenes like this distractingly unrealistic, but that's another topic). But neither does a fit 5'4" 115lb man. Put a 5'7" crossfit chick against a 5'9" dude who isn't all that active and she'd almost certainly kick his ass. He won't get automatic points just for having a penis. It's simply that men's strength ceiling is higher (a ceiling relatively few men come close to) and you're probably larger than the average woman. Pound for pound, all other things being equal, it comes down to the individuals concerned.

Obviously this is still going to be a comparatively rare scenario. It's not like most women are pushing their strength limits either, and they're starting from a lower base. But I see a lot of people believing a woman has to be a freak of nature in order to crack even the bottom 20% of guys, and that's not necessarily the case. For a minority of women, the only real barriers are lifting more than they want to and getting buffer than mainstream beauty standards dictate (of course those two factors are linked). A lot of the increasing number of women bucking these norms could give quite a few men a humiliating surprise without looking like She-Hulk. Again, depending on size difference and the man's fitness.

It's like if someone asked if a woman could be as tall or taller than a man. It isn't common, but it isn't a unicorn event/wild fantasy either. Just like not all (or even most) men are 6'0"+, not all men are out of reach strength-wise for all women, whatever their theoretical strength potential may be.

[rukaluka40]

Man are usually strong, no doubt. Just see sports... woman sport and man sport... woman sport compared to man is like a joke. But there's many girls who look average who can beat the shit of average man out there, its for sure.

[garcon55]

All studies confirm the following: "Almost all men are stronger than allmost all women"

That the top 5% women are stronger than the 5% bottom men shows how small the overlap is.
And other studies on punching muscles and grip strength show no overlap at all.
This explains why a middle aged untrained guy can enter a boxing ring and hold his own against the best female boxer of all time at her peak.