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View Poll Results: What will be the outcome of this session?
InTheFlesh86 will win Part 1, but lose Part 2. 2 4.65%
InTheFlesh86 will win Part 2, but lose Part 1. 3 6.98%
InTheFlesh86 will win both Part 1 and Part 2 (most likely). 9 20.93%
InTheFlesh86 will lose both Part 1 and Part 2 (<1% chance). 7 16.28%
I want Dez to make InTheFlesh86 cry. 22 51.16%
Voters: 43. You may not vote on this poll

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  #11  
Old 04-Jul-20, 19:34
Elbow Escape Elbow Escape is offline
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Default Re: Dez Desire vs Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by InTheFlesh86 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Thanks, I was hoping someone would ask me about that!

It's just not that interesting to me to be honest. I don't know jujitsu or any martial art, so naturally I'm not familiar with those techniques for inflicting damage upon my opponent. If I were going to try to hurt someone in a fight, I would likely resort to the same kinds of basic human tactics that most untrained people would--Punching, kicking, stomping, choking, biting, gouging, pulling hair, low blows etc. Those are the offensive techniques I have at my disposal, and they're all ruled out by the rules of BJJ/Judo etc. So by engaging in a BJJ contest with someone trained in BJJ, I don't have any greater chance of winning than someone who doesn't know how to hold a tennis racket has against someone who plays tennis. As a sport, I simply don't know the rules of the game, so rather than flounder around and aimlessly flail my arms in my opponent's face and wait to get caught in an arm-bar or a triangle, I'd rather just focus on defending/controlling. Depending on how difficult that is, I might be able to make an educated guess as to how a "real fight" would go.
There are plenty of istinctive and intuitive things that an untrained guy could do to try to win in a grappling match against trained in BJJ.
You can try to grab their head in an headlock or in a guillotine, get on top of her and push you forearm on their throat, grab their arm and twist it behind their back with brute strenght, get behind her and apply a rudimental rear naked choke etc...all things that would actually work if you the strenght difference is big enough, they are basically the epitome of "much bigger and stronger person bullies much weaker and therefore helpless one".

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Originally Posted by InTheFlesh86 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Depending on how difficult that is, I might be able to make an educated guess as to how a "real fight" would go.
Actually no, it would not, it would be extremely misleading for making and educated guess about an actual fight.

Some of the main principles of BJJ about fighting much heavier and stronger opponent in a real fight are:

-Be patient and conserve energy while making the big guy tired, since the more he is tired the smaller is strenght advantage become.
In a fight a big guy who is attacking aggressive with strenght and no technique will tire out very fast, what the big guy has to do is grab him and stay close to not give the space to strike him and act in an efficient way that would preserve his energy.

As a part of the strategy, when a big guy is on top of the BJJ, the goal is not to escape as fast as possible explosively burning and wasting energy, but to chill, be calm and patient, make sure you are protected and then wait for the best moment to escape.
"if he is controlling you, that's absolutely no problem as long as he is not submitting you, he has to attack sooner or later, and then he would give you the space to make your move"

Those are words from elite BJJ guys such as te Gracie's, not just mine, if you don't trust me.

It's an extremely common scenario (both in grappling challenges and real fights) for an untrained much bigger guy to spent a lot of time on top of a BJJ guy thinking that he is winning and dominating, while in reality he is right on his trap and he end up being submitted without even realizing how it happened.

So with a 15 minutes limit where you are just defending and try to control it would be the other way around, she would be the one forced by the rules to be aggressive and in a hurry, waste energy etc....in a way a good BJJ practitioner would not otherwise, and I can see you be on top of her for a while and doing nothing, time rans out and you go home thinking that you have won while if you tried to attack she would have turned the table on you, meaning she was not actually in trouble and at a disadvantage.

I think that you being aggressive and trying to attack and win would be way closer to the dynamics of a real fight.

And by the way, why the submission challenges are 30 minutes and the grappling match just 15?
It make more sense to do the opposite in my opinion, it should not take much time to cycle through a series of submission to see if you can escape or not, while the longer the grappling match is the more realiable it result would be (the longer it is, the more likely is that you get tired and she outlast you, or that you make a mistake and she capitalize etc....)




Quote:
In short, I think these popular videos of big guys losing to small guys in BJJ are very misleading and actually not that interesting. That is not to say that in a real fight the outcome would always be different, but sometimes it would.
I'm not sure, but are you referring to the Royce vs Shamrock matches that I mentioned?
Because those were no rules fights, not BJJ matches.

Quote:
And the funny thing is, this isn't unique to BJJ! Take any bigger, stronger, more athletic person and put him up against a small girl in anything that she's skilled in and that he's never done and she'll have a good chance of winning. Duh!
That's untrue, the gap between untrained bigger, stronger and more athletic man and trained females differ immensely based on the activity, in some the gap in insourmountable and in other is not.
in BJJ is completely different than in Boxing which is completely different than Football which is completely different than Weightlifting which is completely different than Ping Pong.
BJJ is by far one where the gap is smaller that I can think of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RNC [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
I would think that triangles are seen as more secure and more difficult to escape than RNCs. It might just be because legs are stronger than arms. But I also think that more can go wrong in a RNC technique-wise, e.g. in a RNC you can pry at her arms if they aren't correctly locked up, you can rotate your body, etc. I find it more difficult to wriggle my way out of a triangle - but maybe that's just me!
Do you have any BJJ training out of curiosity?
Because it's extremely easier to power out from a triangle then from a rear naked choke fom a well built guy with a 100 lbs advantage, a lot of times with such a size difference you can't even lock the triangle properly.
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  #12  
Old 04-Jul-20, 19:49
RNC RNC is offline
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Default Re: Dez Desire vs Me

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Originally Posted by Elbow Escape [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Do you have any BJJ training out of curiosity?
Because it's extremely easier to power out from a triangle then from a rear naked choke fom a well built guy with a 100 lbs advantage, a lot of times with such a size difference you can't even lock the triangle properly.
No, I've no training at all. I was just going by personal experience (personal experience of figuring things out myself during sessions). That's interesting though. I've always had more trouble in triangles - but that must be just me (a gap in my skills) so. Thanks for the info. I'll try power out next time so!
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  #13  
Old 04-Jul-20, 19:58
ssddfaudhey ssddfaudhey is offline
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Default Re: Dez Desire vs Me

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Originally Posted by RNC [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
No, I've no training at all. I was just going by personal experience (personal experience of figuring things out myself during sessions). That's interesting though. I've always had more trouble in triangles - but that must be just me (a gap in my skills) so. Thanks for the info. I'll try power out next time so!

I agree ,but I guess alot of factors come into play. For me triangles are always more trouble once locked in
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  #14  
Old 04-Jul-20, 20:00
Elbow Escape Elbow Escape is offline
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Default Re: Dez Desire vs Me

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Originally Posted by RNC [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
No, I've no training at all. I was just going by personal experience (personal experience of figuring things out myself during sessions). That's interesting though. I've always had more trouble in triangles - but that must be just me (a gap in my skills) so. Thanks for the info. I'll try power out next time so!
Well but you are a skinny guy, right?
I was talking about a huge guy, who has an high chance to push forward, stack the small guy doing the triangle and bulldoz his way through the hold, especially considering that it would probably not even be locked that well due to the size gap.
(or to lift him up and slam him if he doesn't underhook his leg to prevent that, altough slams are much less reliable and effective than most people realize as a triangle escape).
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  #15  
Old 04-Jul-20, 21:36
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InTheFlesh86 InTheFlesh86 is offline
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Default Re: Dez Desire vs Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elbow Escape [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
There are plenty of istinctive and intuitive things that an untrained guy could do to try to win in a grappling match against trained in BJJ.
You can try to grab their head in an headlock or in a guillotine, get on top of her and push you forearm on their throat, grab their arm and twist it behind their back with brute strenght, get behind her and apply a rudimental rear naked choke etc...all things that would actually work if you the strenght difference is big enough, they are basically the epitome of "much bigger and stronger person bullies much weaker and therefore helpless one".
There may be a couple things they could do, but most of what you mentioned are just variations of a headlock. I think the fact remains that 80%+ of an untrained person's offensive repertoire will be unavailable to him given a BJJ ruleset. Again, I'm not making the "BJJ doesn't work in a street fight" argument here. The BJJ guy may very well still win in a no rules fight, but we should at least be able to agree that the restrictions imposed by BJJ rules disproportionately affect the untrained fighter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Elbow Escape [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Some of the main principles of BJJ about fighting much heavier and stronger opponent in a real fight are:

-Be patient and conserve energy while making the big guy tired, since the more he is tired the smaller is strenght advantage become.
In a fight a big guy who is attacking aggressive with strenght and no technique will tire out very fast, what the big guy has to do is grab him and stay close to not give the space to strike him and act in an efficient way that would preserve his energy.

As a part of the strategy, when a big guy is on top of the BJJ, the goal is not to escape as fast as possible explosively burning and wasting energy, but to chill, be calm and patient, make sure you are protected and then wait for the best moment to escape.
"if he is controlling you, that's absolutely no problem as long as he is not submitting you, he has to attack sooner or later, and then he would give you the space to make your move"

Those are words from elite BJJ guys such as te Gracie's, not just mine, if you don't trust me.

It's an extremely common scenario (both in grappling challenges and real fights) for an untrained much bigger guy to spent a lot of time on top of a BJJ guy thinking that he is winning and dominating, while in reality he is right on his trap and he end up being submitted without even realizing how it happened.

So with a 15 minutes limit where you are just defending and try to control it would be the other way around, she would be the one forced by the rules to be aggressive and in a hurry, waste energy etc....in a way a good BJJ practitioner would not otherwise, and I can see you be on top of her for a while and doing nothing, time rans out and you go home thinking that you have won while if you tried to attack she would have turned the table on you, meaning she was not actually in trouble and at a disadvantage.
Haha! So what I hear you saying is that my strategy is a lot smarter and more effective than the average dummy who goes charging into something he doesn't understand!

I mean, I agree with you that my approach will give me a better chance at success. Where we disagree is the extent to which this approach resembles a real fight. What you say is true, 'if' I were to attack, I would be much more vulnerable to a counterattack from her than I would otherwise. But again, the way I would go about attacking in a BJJ match is far different than what I would do in a life/death fight. You might be pleased to hear me say this: I concede that I would lose to Dez (or any BJJ practitioner) in a BJJ competition! But because I don't practice BJJ, I'm not particularly interested in that. What I'd really like to know is whether a woman who knows BJJ could literally walk up to me and end my life without me being able to do anything about it. Granted, there's no way to actually test this, but my thought/hope was that just trying to defend/control would at least give me a feel for what it might be like. Emphasis on "control" by the way, which will involve me being the aggressor to some extent. Of course I could technically avoid getting submitted by just running around the cage the whole time, haha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elbow Escape [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
And by the way, why the submission challenges are 30 minutes and the grappling match just 15?
It make more sense to do the opposite in my opinion, it should not take much time to cycle through a series of submission to see if you can escape or not, while the longer the grappling match is the more realiable it result would be (the longer it is, the more likely is that you get tired and she outlast you, or that you make a mistake and she capitalize etc....)
Those times are just estimates. If part 1 gets finished sooner, then we'll have more time for grappling. How long part 1 takes will depend on how long Dez decides to hold me in place in the event I can't escape. I'm very serious about the "male ego therapy" thing actually. I think it's going to take me awhile to admit whatever she asks me to say.


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Originally Posted by Elbow Escape [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
That's untrue, the gap between untrained bigger, stronger and more athletic man and trained females differ immensely based on the activity, in some the gap in insourmountable and in other is not.
in BJJ is completely different than in Boxing which is completely different than Football which is completely different than Weightlifting which is completely different than Ping Pong.
BJJ is by far one where the gap is smaller that I can think of.
Haha oh c'mon! Lebron James himself would lose to any 16 year old girl who was skilled in: Bowling, tennis, swimming, pool, racquetball, gymnastics, archery, volleyball, softball and plenty of others.

And hey I'm not knocking BJJ here by the way. I take it very seriously, and while I think it's probably more closely correlated to a 'real fight' than most disciplines, it's not "literally exactly the same" like a lot people (not necessarily you) seem to imply!
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  #16  
Old 04-Jul-20, 22:30
Elbow Escape Elbow Escape is offline
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Default Re: Dez Desire vs Me

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Those times are just estimates. If part 1 gets finished sooner, then we'll have more time for grappling. How long part 1 takes will depend on how long Dez decides to hold me in place in the event I can't escape.
That's an even more misleading thing, to hold on a choke (for example, a rear naked choke) properly you actually have to be squeezing and choking the opponent, which means that if he doesn't tap he would pass out in less than then seconds.
If he hold you in place for as long she wants or as long you need to concead defeat, that mean that she is not holding on tight which increase immensely your chance of escape.

Quote:
And hey I'm not knocking BJJ here by the way. I take it very seriously, and while I think it's probably more closely correlated to a 'real fight' than most disciplines, it's not "literally exactly the same" like a lot people (not necessarily you) seem to imply
That's actually a more complex thing actually.
BJJ is originally born in early 1900's as a grappling-based style for real, no rules fight against much bigger, stronger and athletic opponent.
It was tested through decades in no rules situations such as vale tudo events, clandestine no rules challenge matches and even street fights.
Of course things like using grappling holds and managing the distance effectively to neutralize and prevent punches, kicks, knees, elbows, eye gouges etc....to make sure that you were wlays safe from them was a great priority.

More recently it has developed also has a popular grappling only sport, with no strikes allowed, so it exists simultaneously as a grappling sport and has a self defense/real fighting art.
And of course there are huge differences in the strategy and approach of the two things.

Fact is that it doesn't exist a "universal standard curriculum" for BJJ, so every school emphasize a different aspect of the discipline.
Some teach exclusevely the sport aspect, some prioritize real self defense, some are are something inbetween.
Of course the more someone train in a gym that prioritize the self defense aspect (such as the gracie academy affiliated school, which are almost 100% strictly self defense) the better he would be in a real fight.


When I talk I do with having in mind someone that trains adequately the real fighting aspect of the art.

Quote:
Haha! So what I hear you saying is that my strategy is a lot smarter and more effective than the average dummy who goes charging into something he doesn't understand!

I mean, I agree with you that my approach will give me a better chance at success. Where we disagree is the extent to which this approach resembles a real fight. What you say is true, 'if' I were to attack, I would be much more vulnerable to a counterattack from her than I would otherwise. But again, the way I would go about attacking in a BJJ match is far different than what I would do in a life/death fight. You might be pleased to hear me say this: I concede that I would lose to Dez (or any BJJ practitioner) in a BJJ competition! But because I don't practice BJJ, I'm not particularly interested in that. What I'd really like to know is whether a woman who knows BJJ could literally walk up to me and end my life without me being able to do anything about it. Granted, there's no way to actually test this, but my thought/hope was that just trying to defend/control would at least give me a feel for what it might be like. Emphasis on "control" by the way, which will involve me being the aggressor to some extent. Of course I could technically avoid getting submitted by just running around the cage the whole time, haha.
Your approach would give a better chance at winning this game of "don't get submitted in 15 minutes", but it would not tell much about a real fight.

Let's suppose you lay on top of her for 15 minutes without trying to deal any damage, how can that prove that, if you tried to punch her like you would do in a real fight, you would not get swept, armbarred or choked the instant after?
Or more realistically, how can you laying on top of her without trying to attack, forcing her to act explosively in a rushed and exhausting way to escape since the artificial rules of the game pressure her into doing so prove how would you fare in areal fight, since in a real fight she would probably use the opposite strategy of chilling, be patient and acting only at the right moment?

Instead if you are able to submit her (for example by choking her) that would prove that you would also win in a real fight, if you are able to beat her without even needing to throw strikes that would mean that you would kill her much more easily if you could.


Ah, just to avoid misunderstandings, I'm not saying that she would beat you in a real fight, and I'm not even saying that she would beat you in a grappling or BJJ match.
I have no idea about both things, and I am extremely interested in finding out.

I haven't ever seen a grappling match (let alone a real fight) between a woman expert in BJJ and an untrained man your size who was not holding back and was completely determinated to win, and I have always been extremely curios to see it and see how it would pan out.
That's why I'm very excited for your match and I want to make sure that this opportunity don't get wasted.

Last edited by Elbow Escape; 04-Jul-20 at 22:39.
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  #17  
Old 04-Jul-20, 22:44
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InTheFlesh86 InTheFlesh86 is offline
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Default Re: Dez Desire vs Me

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Originally Posted by Elbow Escape [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Ah, just to avoid misunderstanding, I'm no saying that she would beat you ina real fight, and I'm not even saying that she would beat you in a grappling or BJJ match.
I have no idea about both things, and I am extremely curios to find out.

I haven't ever seen a grappling match (let alone a real fight) between a woman expert in BJJ and an untrained man your size who was not holding back and was completely determinated to win, and I have always been extremely curios to see it and see how it would pan out.
That's why I'm very excited for your match and I want to make sure that this opportunity don't get wasted.
Thanks for saying that! The goal of this thread is to give people something to talk about. I'm willing to put myself on the line as a representative of the "big, strong, untrained man" community.

I'll feel it out man! I'll talk to Dez the day of and see what she thinks. Maybe if she kills me right off the bat I'll change up my strategy a bit haha.
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Old 04-Jul-20, 22:53
Elbow Escape Elbow Escape is offline
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Default Re: Dez Desire vs Me

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Originally Posted by InTheFlesh86 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Thanks for saying that! The goal of this thread is to give people something to talk about. I'm willing to put myself on the line as a representative of the "big, strong, untrained man" community.

I'll feel it out man! I'll talk to Dez the day of and see what she thinks. Maybe if she kills me right off the bat I'll change up my strategy a bit haha.
The "trying to escape the holds" part should take just a few minutes, since you can't stay in a choke for more than ten seconds without passing out.
Even if you add a couple of immobilization only holds like the full nelson form back control that you were talking about in an other thread there is no way you reach 30 minutes, even 10 seems like a big stretch to me.

Therefore, what do you think about grappling with her for 15 minutes without trying to win and just defend/control, and than grappling another 15 minutes with you trying as hard as you can to submit her to see the difference?
I think it' a very good compromise.
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Old 04-Jul-20, 23:23
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Default Re: Dez Desire vs Me

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Originally Posted by Elbow Escape [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
The "trying to escape the holds" part should take just a few minutes, since you can't stay in a choke for more than ten seconds without passing out.
Even if you add a couple of immobilization only holds like the full nelson form back control that you were talking about in an other thread there is no way you reach 30 minutes, even 10 seems like a big stretch to me.

Therefore, what do you think about grappling with her for 15 minutes without trying to win and just defend/control, and than grappling another 15 minutes with you trying as hard as you can to submit her to see the difference?
I think it' a very good compromise.
Ah, we may have slightly different priorities here. My primary goal for the session is actually my "male ego therapy". I may have mentioned before that I've always had something of a "phobia" of being beaten and/or submitted by a woman. So if I'm not able to get out of a hold, she's going to drag it out until I admit that I can't. I realize with something like a triangle choke she can't clamp down full force the entire time, but she can regulate between 'choking' and 'restraining' until I've satisfied her demands.

Besides, my conditioning sucks and I probably couldn't last much more than 15 min anyway, if that. Now if I had gone up against her 10 years ago on the other hand.....
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Old 05-Jul-20, 05:33
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Default Re: Dez Desire vs Me

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Originally Posted by Elbow Escape [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Well but you are a skinny guy, right?
I was talking about a huge guy, who has an high chance to push forward, stack the small guy doing the triangle and bulldoz his way through the hold, especially considering that it would probably not even be locked that well due to the size gap.
(or to lift him up and slam him if he doesn't underhook his leg to prevent that, altough slams are much less reliable and effective than most people realize as a triangle escape).
I'm a skinny arms, fat belly kind of guy! But, yeah, I understand what you mean. I won't try bulldoze through vs a session wrestler (it sounds a bit aggressive.... I'm quite passive in sessions). And, yeah, you have reminded me that slams are a good defence against triangles (e.g. the Rampage Jackson slam!) but I won't be trying that vs a session wrestler either!

So there are more defence techniques vs triangles than I originally appreciated. Thanks!
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