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  #61  
Old 23-Jun-20, 23:11
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lthasatan lthasatan is offline
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Default Re: Average Man vs Average Woman: it depends on how you define average

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Originally Posted by jiminy [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
While statements such as 'the average man is stronger than the average woman' is more or less factually correct, it tends to be a gateway to more ignorant statements such as 'men are stronger than women'.
That is not ignorant. People that are not able to see it in context are either ignorant or, more commonly, ideologically motivated.

When one says 'men are stronger than women', it is obvious that they mean in the vast majority. No need to interject with #notall.

I like my fantasy world where Sheena is the average woman as well, but it is not reality.

Added after 7 minutes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Croushore [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Match them by comparable size and I’m not sure which sex is stronger.
Still man. Man are genetically taller and tend to have more lean mass (yes #notall, I am talking about the trend).

Woman that are as large as man will be generally obese.

Still you can keep trying since, "If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything"

Last edited by lthasatan; 23-Jun-20 at 23:11.
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  #62  
Old 24-Jun-20, 08:35
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Default Re: Average Man vs Average Woman: it depends on how you define average

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Originally Posted by lthasatan [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
That is not ignorant. People that are not able to see it in context are either ignorant or, more commonly, ideologically motivated.

When one says 'men are stronger than women', it is obvious that they mean in the vast majority. No need to interject with #notall.

You're not wrong regarding averages and in some cases it is indeed not needed. I'm not trying to nitpick as I'm sure I've said things like "Danish women are taller than Indian men" before.

Sadly, the 'context' is often (*not always) a man grossly overestimating himself. As a gym goer, I've seen many times a man attempt to live up to his own hype and fail miserably.

It typically looks something like this;

"I'm a man, I can surely match her squat for 1 rep, I haven't been lifting that long, but men are stronger than women..."




Last edited by jiminy; 24-Jun-20 at 08:45.
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  #63  
Old 24-Jun-20, 10:15
Wrestler11 Wrestler11 is offline
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Default Re: Average Man vs Average Woman: it depends on how you define average

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Originally Posted by jiminy [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
You're not wrong regarding averages and in some cases it is indeed not needed. I'm not trying to nitpick as I'm sure I've said things like "Danish women are taller than Indian men" before.

Sadly, the 'context' is often (*not always) a man grossly overestimating himself. As a gym goer, I've seen many times a man attempt to live up to his own hype and fail miserably.

It typically looks something like this;

"I'm a man, I can surely match her squat for 1 rep, I haven't been lifting that long, but men are stronger than women..."



Seems several subjects here get mixed up.
Genetics and phyischal attributes. This is potential, without training and skills it is nothing. Tie Usain Bolt on a couch for a year and his muscles will atrophy so much he will not be able to walk and a cripple will out run him.

Those genetics only make the difference if both competitors receive a similar amount of training.
You can have all the genetics in the world, if you never touch a weight and only bags of cheetos a smaller person with a intense training program will be stronger than you.

Now in fighting there are weight classes and seperation of gender because strength and size matter a lot.
However this only matters if both competitors have a similar amount of training and skill.
In that case those few pounds more muscle will make a difference.

However if one is highly trained and the other not the highly trained person will win, no matter if the other person has better genetics, athleticism, more muscle tissue, bone density etc.

In other words a smaller man or female can defeat a bigger male if their skills are better.

That Serena Williams could not beat the best males in the world does not mean she can't beat the rest of the human population.
That the best female wrestler in the world can not beat the best male wrestler in the world does not mean she can't beat anyone else.
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  #64  
Old 24-Jun-20, 17:06
ClckwrkOra ClckwrkOra is offline
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Default Re: Average Man vs Average Woman: it depends on how you define average

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrestler11 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Seems several subjects here get mixed up.
Genetics and phyischal attributes. This is potential, without training and skills it is nothing. Tie Usain Bolt on a couch for a year and his muscles will atrophy so much he will not be able to walk and a cripple will out run him.

Those genetics only make the difference if both competitors receive a similar amount of training.
You can have all the genetics in the world, if you never touch a weight and only bags of cheetos a smaller person with a intense training program will be stronger than you.

Now in fighting there are weight classes and seperation of gender because strength and size matter a lot.
However this only matters if both competitors have a similar amount of training and skill.
In that case those few pounds more muscle will make a difference.

However if one is highly trained and the other not the highly trained person will win, no matter if the other person has better genetics, athleticism, more muscle tissue, bone density etc.

In other words a smaller man or female can defeat a bigger male if their skills are better.

That Serena Williams could not beat the best males in the world does not mean she can't beat the rest of the human population.
That the best female wrestler in the world can not beat the best male wrestler in the world does not mean she can't beat anyone else.


Few will dispute that there are usually exceptions to a rule.

The initial question (as I understand it) was whether women as a group are stronger / can win fights against comparably sized men.

As a group, the answer most often will be no.


Strength:

* According to this female researcher's [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register], "average to weak men" were found in one study to have hand-grip strength comparable to 60 "fit, young sportswomen with good upper body strength."

* In Olympic weightlifting, the researcher notes, a female champion at 75-plus kg, could beat only males who weighed less than 60 kg.


Speed:

"Across all speed events, women consistently achieve [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register] of men's speeds," the researcher says.
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  #65  
Old 24-Jun-20, 21:53
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Default Re: Average Man vs Average Woman: it depends on how you define average

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrestler11 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Seems several subjects here get mixed up.
Genetics and phyischal attributes. This is potential, without training and skills it is nothing. Tie Usain Bolt on a couch for a year and his muscles will atrophy so much he will not be able to walk and a cripple will out run him.

Those genetics only make the difference if both competitors receive a similar amount of training.
You can have all the genetics in the world, if you never touch a weight and only bags of cheetos a smaller person with a intense training program will be stronger than you.
Perhaps this would be better suited to a new thread as it's largely off topic here. I’m not suggesting a completely untrained person can beat a much more experienced, disciplined person.

However, for the genetically gifted, success is certainly easier to obtain. They can get away with less training (not zero, but less) and less dedication and still beat the try-hards whose enthusiasm is far greater than their talent.

When you get a bunch of untrained people together - i.e. school kids and get them into sports and PE, you can immediately see some are better at it than others, right? More natural, more innate ability. Often with very large disparities between the quick and agile and the clumsy plodders. Some clearly have a more advanced starting point and higher ceiling of potential (if developed) due to superior sporting genetics / natural athleticism.

Another point to illustrate this is age. Athleticism erodes away with age. Reflexes slow and the joints stiffen up. A 40 year old can be much more experienced, with decades of training behind them, but lose to a 22 year old that has seemingly blown past them with less training and experience. Why? Because the younger person has more athleticism on their side.
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  #66  
Old 25-Jun-20, 01:35
Wrestler11 Wrestler11 is offline
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Default Re: Average Man vs Average Woman: it depends on how you define average

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Originally Posted by jiminy [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Perhaps this would be better suited to a new thread as it's largely off topic here. I’m not suggesting a completely untrained person can beat a much more experienced, disciplined person.

However, for the genetically gifted, success is certainly easier to obtain. They can get away with less training (not zero, but less) and less dedication and still beat the try-hards whose enthusiasm is far greater than their talent.

When you get a bunch of untrained people together - i.e. school kids and get them into sports and PE, you can immediately see some are better at it than others, right? More natural, more innate ability. Often with very large disparities between the quick and agile and the clumsy plodders. Some clearly have a more advanced starting point and higher ceiling of potential (if developed) due to superior sporting genetics / natural athleticism.

Another point to illustrate this is age. Athleticism erodes away with age. Reflexes slow and the joints stiffen up. A 40 year old can be much more experienced, with decades of training behind them, but lose to a 22 year old that has seemingly blown past them with less training and experience. Why? Because the younger person has more athleticism on their side.
Agree with most of it.
However it is slippery.

Most kids who do well in sports like to do it and did movement most of their life.
It is a nature vs nurture debate.
Is athleticism taught or are people born with it and to what degree.

Most kids who do sports and experience joy and recognition like it and keep doing it.
While kids who do not like it and get made fun of for example wil stop training and as a result they will not improve while (the talented?) kids keep improving.
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  #67  
Old 25-Jun-20, 02:48
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Default Re: Average Man vs Average Woman: it depends on how you define average

Interesting topic here that we all might be overthinking just a tad.

In an average situation, typically the average male would defeat the average female. Case closed, but lets have a little fun and go above and beyond average.

A vast majority of people (both male and female) who like to be competitive, are going to strive for more than just average. Thats where this topic can get interesting with average males thinking that they are going to compete against above average to elite females. Case in point? I will use myself in a couple of examples.

Over 25 years ago, I played collegiate football and was in pretty good shape. My junior year, I squatted 285 (30) times. When I was 30, I squatted 435 (4 plates) 10 times. Since those days, I have let myself go quite a bit, but the foundation is still there. That all being said, here are some examples that I can safely say would happen if I stepped onto the mat.

Talking the elite category, an olympic wrestler such as Erica Wiebe would absolutely destroy me. She would take me down, get behind me for the two points, sink the half in deep, roll me to my back, and lay across my chest until the referee slapped the mat. That is a reality that I can swallow my pride and admit.

Talking above average, I will list 5 session wrestlers who I think would defeat me in embarrassing fashion:

1) Sheena
2) Warrior Amazone
3) Megan Jones
4) Lucretia
5) Goddess Anat

There are probably more that I could add to the list, but I think you guys get the point.

I love Wrestler11's question and to paraphrase: Are athletes born or are they made?
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  #68  
Old 25-Jun-20, 09:53
Wrestler11 Wrestler11 is offline
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Default Re: Average Man vs Average Woman: it depends on how you define average

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Originally Posted by cbpinfan [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Interesting topic here that we all might be overthinking just a tad.

In an average situation, typically the average male would defeat the average female. Case closed, but lets have a little fun and go above and beyond average.

A vast majority of people (both male and female) who like to be competitive, are going to strive for more than just average. Thats where this topic can get interesting with average males thinking that they are going to compete against above average to elite females. Case in point? I will use myself in a couple of examples.

Over 25 years ago, I played collegiate football and was in pretty good shape. My junior year, I squatted 285 (30) times. When I was 30, I squatted 435 (4 plates) 10 times. Since those days, I have let myself go quite a bit, but the foundation is still there. That all being said, here are some examples that I can safely say would happen if I stepped onto the mat.

Talking the elite category, an olympic wrestler such as Erica Wiebe would absolutely destroy me. She would take me down, get behind me for the two points, sink the half in deep, roll me to my back, and lay across my chest until the referee slapped the mat. That is a reality that I can swallow my pride and admit.

Talking above average, I will list 5 session wrestlers who I think would defeat me in embarrassing fashion:

1) Sheena
2) Warrior Amazone
3) Megan Jones
4) Lucretia
5) Goddess Anat

There are probably more that I could add to the list, but I think you guys get the point.

I love Wrestler11's question and to paraphrase: Are athletes born or are they made?

Just for fun, let's narrow it down.
The training in college football and weight lifting makes you better at football and weightlifting.
Those skills, power and athleticism to some degree will improve you skill in other things: wrestling, obstacle course etc.
You can probably outgrapple the average male and female and beat them on a obstacle course.

However it is not enough to compete against someone who has arranged all their training around wrestling (Erica Wiebe, Jordan Burrough).
Or someone who is training full time to race obstacle courses.

It is not just a matter of genetics or athleticism but how specific your training is geared towards that activity (football, weightlifting, wrestling).

Even if we look at competitors who all train in wrestling or grappling we see that there exist highly different sub styles within those.
Big dudes who compete in grappling will often rely on their sheer size to make techniques work and need a teacher to yell at them to stop muscling things and use proper technique.
However smaller males and females can't muscle techniques so as a result they often get more technical.
Also they get used to being outclassed in size and power and will develop their style on using their smaller size to their advantage.

As a result there are several cases of smaller grapplers beating larger ones during open weight classes.
Marcelo Garcia is a fascinating example.

So size and power can make a difference but it also depends on the particular style of the competitors.

Also if one competitor is highly skilled in certain tactics that the other is less skilled in the other can lose badly if the first can create the conditions to make those tactics work.
We saw this a lot the past years when expert leglockers went against people who did not understand leglocks that well.
As a result people with a few years training specifically around leglocks could beat people with decades of experience.

In other words it seems way more complex than x is more athletic or genetically blessed than y.

The person matters
The way the person experiences athletic activities, deals with losing, trains diligently, assesses honestly, uses feedback and losses to improve matters.
Athleticism and training matters.

How specific all that training and athleticism is designed around the activity matters a lot.

What kind of style does that person uses and how does it relate to the tactics the other person will employ. A smaller and weaker person can beat a larger one that is equally trained if their style matches up well against theirs.
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Old 25-Jun-20, 20:23
garcon55 garcon55 is offline
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Default Re: Average Man vs Average Woman: it depends on how you define average

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Originally Posted by jiminy [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
You're not wrong regarding averages and in some cases it is indeed not needed. I'm not trying to nitpick as I'm sure I've said things like "Danish women are taller than Indian men" before.

Sadly, the 'context' is often (*not always) a man grossly overestimating himself. As a gym goer, I've seen many times a man attempt to live up to his own hype and fail miserably.

It typically looks something like this;

"I'm a man, I can surely match her squat for 1 rep, I haven't been lifting that long, but men are stronger than women..."




You cannot take female crossfitters as an example.
If you take steroids, you can be way stronger than the natural average.

Professional female crossfitters lift as much as advanced up to elite male lifters, the same as male crossfitters (for their respective weights).#It litterally means they they are just as strong as men.
But nothing is natural there. they all take a series of drugs like anavar and some others, even at a local level. And the results of these drugs are really spectacular.
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  #70  
Old 25-Jun-20, 20:40
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jiminy jiminy is offline
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Default Re: Average Man vs Average Woman: it depends on how you define average

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Originally Posted by garcon55 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
You cannot take female crossfitters as an example.
If you take steroids, you can be way stronger than the natural average.

Professional female crossfitters lift as much as advanced up to elite male lifters, the same as male crossfitters (for their respective weights).#It litterally means they they are just as strong as men.
But nothing is natural there. they all take a series of drugs like anavar and some others, even at a local level. And the results of these drugs are really spectacular.
You missed the point.

The point wasn’t how much she lifted or whether she’s on steroids, it’s that many guys overestimate themselves and fail miserably when attempting to live up to their own hype.

Yes, women sometimes do this too, but it’s a lot more common in men.
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