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View Poll Results: What percentage of untraned men can Michelle Waterson beat in a fight?
5%, she can beat just the weakest men 7 6.48%
5% to 20% 9 8.33%
20% to 50% 4 3.70%
50% to 80% 20 18.52%
80% to 95% 19 17.59%
95% to 99% 24 22.22%
99,9% 3 2.78%
99,99% 7 6.48%
99,999% 1 0.93%
99,9999% 2 1.85%
>99,9999% 12 11.11%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

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  #41  
Old 08-Jun-23, 21:09
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jiminy jiminy is offline
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elbow Escape [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

It's no different than a completely unskilled 300 lbs strongman just picking a 120 lbs BJJ player up and knocking him out with a slam or muscling through perfectly executed takedowns and submission attemps, in both cases the skilled person is going to be bitter he lost to an unskilled person but it doesn't make it any less of a loss.
Yes it is. See the 'getting crushed by car' analogy. Car doesn't have to have any skill, training, mobility, strength, etc... It just has to weigh a tonne and that alone is enough.

A strongman still has carry-over skills that any competent BJJ player would be cognisant of.

You could say anyone would be cognisant of a beached whale as well but a lot of people just don't realise how heavy a 400-500+lbs body on top of them will feel. It's like the story Ramsey Dewey often used to tell about a 400+lbs man in his guard and he just had to tap out because he was getting squashed. He thought he could play guard in training but even that was too much.

Anyway the point is that I personally don't consider it a legit win; just laying on someone and crushing them under immense bodyweight... There are levels to legitimacy.

Even something like Megan Anderson toeing Cat Zingano's eyeball wasn't a particularly legitimate win as it's akin to a fluke in Snooker or Pool. Just hit and hope but even then it requires a decorum of skill. Fighting is a sport where someone with no skill whatsoever can have integers where they can beat a skilled, trained person. You can say a submission is a submission but I don't accept that, personally. I want to see skills and enviable physical attributes like strength, muscle and explosive power if not skill and technique. No one should be envious a 500lbs obese slob. That classes you as disabled.

And yes, chances are it won't happen. The easiest guy I ever beat outweighed me by over 100lbs and he was just too slow and cumbersome and ran out of puff and quit due to exhaustion. Good stamina and durability, mental fortitude again are enviable physical attributes you can bring to a fight without training.


Quote:
They can be both reality depending on the skill level of the individuals involved (by the way the fat guy in the second pic is also trained and he may be quite skilled on top of his size for all we know), I repeat that squashing skilled grapplers from top is a lot harder than people think if you are completely unskilled even if you have hundreds of lbs of advantage:
Yeah I know it's all reality.

Get a dose of reality and log on to winner vs loser.

I doubt that fat man is particularly skilled though. Obese people don't tend to be particularly good at sports. Unless it's sumo wrestling; mass moving mass but even then you need a level of decent mobility and agility.

I think it's quite telling that in MMA, most of the best heavyweights - Fedor, Cain, Cormier, now Jon Jones have tended to be smaller than most of their opponents. It shows that speed, agility and athleticism are better catalysts for "skill" than just being big. Something which some people get overly het up with.
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  #42  
Old 09-Jun-23, 00:16
Elbow Escape Elbow Escape is offline
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

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Originally Posted by jiminy [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

You could say anyone would be cognisant of a beached whale as well but a lot of people just don't realise how heavy a 400-500+lbs body on top of them will feel. It's like the story Ramsey Dewey often used to tell about a 400+lbs man in his guard and he just had to tap out because he was getting squashed. He thought he could play guard in training but even that was too much.
That was a 400 lbs strongman who could deadlift and squat 900+ lbs, it's completely different from an out of shape obese guy of the same weight in terms of pressure and crushing force they can generate and in how difficult is to manovuer from underneath him or off-balance him.
I doubt the latter would have been able to tap Ramsey even by starting on top of his guard.

Moreover I don't think he said it happened from guard specifically.

As for the rest, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree about what we perceive as a "legit victory",

At least we can agree that some obese guy guy being able to just crush Michelle Waterson (as the thread is about what kind of men could beat her) or other skilled female fighters is unlikely to happen.
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  #43  
Old 09-Jun-23, 00:39
sarge0068 sarge0068 is offline
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

I'll ay this.... I am nearly 60 years old and 300lbs. I still have the strength to dead lift several hundred pounds and am sure I could still bench atleast 250lbs. But I get winded just walking one flight of stairs and have the stamina of a corpse. Over 20 year ago, in the Army, I trained a few weeks in hand to hand comabatives, but have not done any of that since late 2000/early 2001. A few weeks ago, the boyfriend of my 20 year old niece challenged me to a grappling match. He is about 145lbs and has trained in BJJ for over a year, and has had a couple amateur fights. And all his skill and training was no match for my weight and strength. I simply squashed him, and he was not able to move me in any way. I made him tap over and over simply by getting my arms around his torso, squeezing, and digging my chin into his chest, or back or any other place I could press on. There is a reason that there are weight divisions in mma, as size plays a HUGE part in these fights. And it makes an even bigger advantage if it is male vs female.
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  #44  
Old 09-Jun-23, 01:59
Elbow Escape Elbow Escape is offline
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarge0068 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
I'll ay this.... I am nearly 60 years old and 300lbs. I still have the strength to dead lift several hundred pounds and am sure I could still bench atleast 250lbs. But I get winded just walking one flight of stairs and have the stamina of a corpse. Over 20 year ago, in the Army, I trained a few weeks in hand to hand comabatives, but have not done any of that since late 2000/early 2001. A few weeks ago, the boyfriend of my 20 year old niece challenged me to a grappling match. He is about 145lbs and has trained in BJJ for over a year, and has had a couple amateur fights. And all his skill and training was no match for my weight and strength. I simply squashed him, and he was not able to move me in any way. I made him tap over and over simply by getting my arms around his torso, squeezing, and digging my chin into his chest, or back or any other place I could press on. There is a reason that there are weight divisions in mma, as size plays a HUGE part in these fights. And it makes an even bigger advantage if it is male vs female.
Size and weight definitely matter a lot but the guy you are talking about is just some random white belt, he is no representive of what an highly skilled grappler or fighter (including female ones) can do.
I'm positive that if you tested it out with higher level guys his same size you would be surprised.
Moreover you are still physically stronger than the kind of obese guys me and Jiminy were talking about.

By the way the UFC (and MMA promotions in general) used to have no weight classes when it was style vs style and at the time small highly skilled guys beating big fat unskilled guys hundreds lbs heavier than them was a common occurence, it happened pretty much every time such match-ups took place.
Weight classes becomes necessary among people with the same training, and even then it's no guarantee as proved by how BJJ/submission grappling tournaments still have an openweight divisiond where small guys beating opponents twice their weight sometimes still happen despite the competitors having the same belt rank.

Last edited by Elbow Escape; 09-Jun-23 at 06:50.
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  #45  
Old 09-Jun-23, 20:44
sarge0068 sarge0068 is offline
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

[QUOTE=Elbow Escape;610634]Size and weight definitely matter a lot...


That is the only point I am trying to make. Waterson, at about 120lbs and highly trained would beat a lot of men. Old men, fat, obese and out of shape men, smaller men, and the vast majority of average Joe's that have no MMA training. And that accounts for well over 50% of the Male population.
But I would think that 90% of male high school football players would beat her just from their size and strength
Waterson is the top 1/100th of 1% of Females in MMA ability. Meaning if you were to grab 1 million random Females of all ages, she would be the best.
But if you were to grab 1 million random Males of all age, I feel that she would get beat by about 20% of them.
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  #46  
Old 10-Jun-23, 03:22
Elbow Escape Elbow Escape is offline
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarge0068 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
That is the only point I am trying to make. Waterson, at about 120lbs and highly trained would beat a lot of men. Old men, fat, obese and out of shape men, smaller men, and the vast majority of average Joe's that have no MMA training. And that accounts for well over 50% of the Male population.
But I would think that 90% of male high school football players would beat her just from their size and strength
Waterson is the top 1/100th of 1% of Females in MMA ability. Meaning if you were to grab 1 million random Females of all ages, she would be the best.
But if you were to grab 1 million random Males of all age, I feel that she would get beat by about 20% of them.
20% is waaaay too high lol, I can beat a much higher percentage of untrained men than 80% (I speak from actual experience not from speculation, I basically spent my teens years getting into either actual fights or "friendly grappling matches" with dozens of people of any size, 200+ lbs rugby players included) and despite trying my hardest I still lost to an high level 130-140 lbs session girl that Michelle should be able to beat, there are so many levels to fighting skills....

Most 200+ lbs super athletic football players would be too big, strong and explosive for her indeed but they are more in the top 2% of the popolation than in the top 20%.

Your average 200-250 lbs guy who is not a seasoned powerlifter or extremely athletic (so most of them) would get beat intead.

Every untrained guy under 180 lbs is also getting beaten regardless of how strong and athletic for his size he is.
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  #47  
Old 10-Jun-23, 12:57
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jiminy jiminy is offline
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarge0068 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Waterson, at about 120lbs and highly trained would beat a lot of men. Old men, fat, obese and out of shape men, smaller men, and the vast majority of average Joe's that have no MMA training. And that accounts for well over 50% of the Male population.
No it accounts for about 99%. lol.

On the flip side, 50% of men aren't big, fit, youthful gym-going studs with martial arts training/knowledge. Most of my friends & associates from the gym, workplace, pool team, neighbourhood, etc, are your typical middle/working class, red-blooded sportive males who'd be thought of as "tough" and "manly" but the truth is hardly any have done martial arts, have interest in MMA or know their guards from their guillotines.

And even if they are, looking like a professional athlete and being a professional athlete are 2 different things. Quite a few lads & older men I used to Box with looked like Floyd Mayweather- lean & muscular or Tyson Fury - tall, hefty and weighty, but were they anywhere near that level? Absolutely not. It's why you can't use guys like Butterbean and Roy Nelson as interchangeables with overweight couch potatoes and claim "weight matters".

What lead to your neice's fiancé challenging you to a grappling match? When I was a youthful 20-something, I wouldn't have done that to a near 60 year old 300lbs overweight guy. Too much sudden exertion can bring on a heart attack when you're that age and size. Like you say, you get out of puff quickly and easily. That's telling you something.

Also, when you're close to 300lbs it's absolutely the case that the "bigger they are, the harder they fall"... Whenever I've seen guys that size take a fall, ie from a single leg takedown, they almost invariably hurt themselves and require medical attention - fractured wrists, elbows, shoulders, if not broken bones. That's a lot of weight coming down. It's why most skaters, boarders, etc are skinny agile people, they can take a spill with a lot less fuss.

It's like those gifs I posted. This probably started with the guys thinking they're no Tony Hawke but surely I can glide a little way on a skateboard, surely I can just boot a foobtall... It's all a lot harder when you're out of shape and out of practise. It's very common for guys to overestimate themselves.

Added after 25 minutes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elbow Escape [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

Every untrained guy under 180 lbs is also getting beaten regardless of how strong and athletic for his size he is.
I would still be inclined to think a very small (less than 0.1%) males in that category could have a chance from natural fighting instincts, athleticism, brute strength, aggression, cerebral fortitude, transferable skills from other sports/activities... And also there should be a space for absolute, sheer, dumb luck, a 1 in a million event happening during the fight. Luck does play a part in fighting as well.

Last edited by jiminy; 10-Jun-23 at 12:57.
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  #48  
Old 10-Jun-23, 21:27
sarge0068 sarge0068 is offline
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

What lead to your neice's fiancé challenging you to a grappling match? When I was a youthful 20-something, I wouldn't have done that to a near 60 year old 300lbs overweight guy. Too much sudden exertion can bring on a heart attack when you're that age and size. Like you say, you get out of puff quickly and easily. That's telling you something.





Added after 25 minutes:

Just friendly trash talking. He thinks he's tough and bad because he is trained in BJJ and has had a few fights. I told him I would have him tapping in less than a minute. He disagreed. I was right and he was humbled. Now, if striking had been allowed, thing may have been different.. But we were jut wrestling..
PS- I am still strong for my age. Back in 2000, I set the Ft Lewis Wa weight lifting record with over 2,100lbs in a 4 lift competition. Dead,squat,clean jerk and bench.

[/QUOTE]

Added after 51 minutes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elbow Escape [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
I still lost to an high level 130-140 lbs session girl that Michelle should be able to beat, there are so many levels to fighting skills....
Which session girls have you lost to that you gave 100% against?

Last edited by sarge0068; 10-Jun-23 at 21:27.
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  #49  
Old 11-Jun-23, 02:41
sarge0068 sarge0068 is offline
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

The poll is too broad to really answer.
Does it include all men from ages new born up to over 100 years old, or just in the same age range as Waterson?
Regardless, here is my honest opinion. It is my opinion, and not up for debate. You can disagree with it, and I am fine with it.
Men that I think have a good chance to beat Waterson.... About 50% of the men on active duty Army service. About 90% of men that play college football. I would also feel that men in certain occupations would do pretty good against her. Such as men that work as brick and stone masons, requiring them to lift 200lb blocks and bags dozens of times per day, and have hand strength that could crush her rib cage just by grabbing a handful of her muscle and squeezing. Many construction workers, or even farmers. Men that work in the logging or pulpwood industry. This is not just a bash against Waterson, many of these type people would beat some of the smaller MMA men.
But if you only include the out of shape couch potatoes that never do anything physical, then I would say she wins 100% of the time.

The poll is too broad to really answer.
Does it include all men from ages new born up to over 100 years old, or just in the same age range as Waterson?
Regardless, here is my honest opinion. It is my opinion, and not up for debate. You can disagree with it, and I am fine with it.
Men that I think have a good chance to beat Waterson.... About 50% of the men on active duty Army service. About 90% of men that play college football. I would also feel that men in certain occupations would do pretty good against her. Such as men that work as brick and stone masons, requiring them to lift 200lb blocks and bags dozens of times per day, and have hand strength that could crush her rib cage just by grabbing a handful of her muscle and squeezing. Many construction workers, or even farmers. Men that work in the logging or pulpwood industry. This is not just a bash against Waterson, many of these type people would beat some of the smaller MMA men.
But if you only include the out of shape couch potatoes that never do anything physical, then I would say she wins 100% of the time.
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  #50  
Old 11-Jun-23, 03:29
Elbow Escape Elbow Escape is offline
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarge0068 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
What lead to your neice's fiancé challenging you to a grappling match? When I was a youthful 20-something, I wouldn't have done that to a near 60 year old 300lbs overweight guy. Too much sudden exertion can bring on a heart attack when you're that age and size. Like you say, you get out of puff quickly and easily. That's telling you something.





Added after 25 minutes:

Just friendly trash talking. He thinks he's tough and bad because he is trained in BJJ and has had a few fights. I told him I would have him tapping in less than a minute. He disagreed. I was right and he was humbled. Now, if striking had been allowed, thing may have been different.. But we were jut wrestling..
PS- I am still strong for my age. Back in 2000, I set the Ft Lewis Wa weight lifting record with over 2,100lbs in a 4 lift competition. Dead,squat,clean jerk and bench.
Added after 51 minutes:

Which session girls have you lost to that you gave 100% against?[/QUOTE]
Antscha, and she is good but she is not even one of the best from what I know (I never sessioned with the girls regarded as the absolute best like Veve Lane, Sheena or Dez Desire)
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