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View Poll Results: What percentage of untraned men can Michelle Waterson beat in a fight?
5%, she can beat just the weakest men 4 7.27%
5% to 20% 4 7.27%
20% to 50% 3 5.45%
50% to 80% 12 21.82%
80% to 95% 7 12.73%
95% to 99% 14 25.45%
99,9% 1 1.82%
99,99% 5 9.09%
99,999% 0 0%
99,9999% 2 3.64%
>99,9999% 3 5.45%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 27-Jul-21, 23:48
Elbow Escape Elbow Escape is offline
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Default What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

How many men without any martial arts or combat sport training do you believe would lose in fight against Michelle Waterson?
And most importantly, what kind of men do you think would lose? I mean what size, strenght, athletic ability, sport background, street fighting experience etc...do you think they need to beat her?

For those who are not familiar with her, she is a 5'3 professional MMA fighter who currently compete in the UFC flyweight division (115 to 125 lbs).
She is a very skilled striker who is particularly good with high kicks and she is also very proficient in grappling and ground fighting (she hold a BJJ brown belt and a Karate black belt).




I personally believe that she could beat at least 99% of men, probably even more.

The only guys without any martial arts training that I think would be favorite against her are high level 200+ lbs athletes in sports where strenght, power or explosivness are very important, like football, rugby or weightlifting, so definitely less than 1% of the male population, maybe even less than 0,1%.

So, speaking of guys with no fighting training, I believe that:

-She consistently beat every guy who is under 180-190 lbs.

-She consistenly beat every guy who is out of shape and unathletic regardless of their size.

-200-250 lbs guys who work out seriously and are very strong (eg. they can deadlift around 500 lbs) or who are good athletes for local standars (eg they play in the local footbal team) is a grey area where the outcome is a toss-up and it can go either way depending on the circumnstances, like a 50/50 chance of winning.

-If we take even bigger, stronger and better athletes than she start to have little, and past a certain point literally none, chance of winning.

What's your opinion instead?
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  #2  
Old 28-Jul-21, 23:28
Elbow Escape Elbow Escape is offline
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

Can the people who voted 5% explain their choice?

Because honestly I find it pretty absurd (it would mean that if I take 100 random untrained guys off the street, 95 would be able to beat a professional female UFC fighter), but I'm still interested in knowing the reasoning behind it.
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  #3  
Old 29-Jul-21, 14:55
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elbow Escape [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
-200-250 lbs guys who work out seriously and are very strong (eg. they can deadlift around 500 lbs) or who are good athletes for local standars (eg they play in the local footbal team) is a grey area where the outcome is a toss-up and it can go either way depending on the circumnstances, like a 50/50 chance of winning.
It's worth keeping in mind that Waterson (like most Jackson-Winklejohn trained fighters) likes to attack the kneecaps, throat and breasts of her opponents. Holly Holm is known for doing the same.







Even if a guy is a muscular 250lbs, having his kneecap busted or ligaments torn from hyperextension would be hard to deal with.

I would say it's easily 99.99% or 1 for every 10,000. You'd still end up with a good number of guys but they would be very few and far between. Most 250 pounders are just sedentary, overweight couch potatoes and Michelle could kill those guys with her bare hands.

The Karate Hottie would chop them up with Karate chops; chop, chop, chop until they resembled chop suey.


Last edited by jiminy; 29-Jul-21 at 16:50.
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  #4  
Old 31-Jul-21, 15:58
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

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This guy could clearly have beat her.
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  #5  
Old 31-Jul-21, 16:57
Elbow Escape Elbow Escape is offline
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

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Originally Posted by Walton [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
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This guy could clearly have beat her.
I was sure someone would have brought that video up, but:

1)We are talking about untrained.

That guy is called Sean Clements and not only he is trained (which you can clearly see by how he moves, how he know how to check leg kicks etc....), he is also so talented and athletic that he has become a professional MMA fighter good enough to compete for Bellator (the second most prestigious MMA organization in the USA after the UFC), altough he was still an amateur figther at the time of that video.
So he is in the absolute top >0,000001% of the population among trained people, let alone if you compare him to untrained people:

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2)The ruleset of that challenge was retarded in the first place, how is she supposed to knock out someone of such size, athleticism and training out when he also has an helment for protection, she has big ass gloves, and he is focused only on defending so he is never going to open up his defense for a counter strike?
The fact that he is not striking back mean that she has not to worry about getting knocked out, yes, but it also mean it's insanely easy for him to just defend succesfully, since it's when people try to attack that they expose themselves to counters.

Not to mention that:
-She was only allowed to strike, and we all know that grappling/BJJ is a much greater equalizer and that physicall attributes matter a ton more in striking only than in an all out fight where a more skilled person is allowed to use BJJ.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm sure she would still have lost against him since he is trained and therefore he knew how to properly defend from grappling techniques, but the point still stand, namely that the smaller and weaker person has a lot more chances to overcame a size, strenght and athleticism disadvantage if BJJ techniques are also allowed.
If you don't believe me just watch the the old school matches when MMA still had no rules or weight classes and it was style vs style, grapplers routinely submitted guys who had some insane strenght, size (even 150+ lbs of lean mass and muscle) and athleticism advantages but were unskilled in grappling.

If you put her in a fight against an untrained clone of him she may very well stay outside of striking range, slip to his back and choke him for all we know.

-Even regarding strikes, she is not trying to stomp his knee out or do anything else that could severely injure a training partner, since of course you don't want to put each other career in jeopardy just for making a fun youtube video....which make the whole "can you last for three minutes" stuff even more stupid and pointless.

The bottom line is that using that video to belittle Michelle Waterson or as an example of how he would fare in an all out fight against regular, untrained men of the same size as Sean Clements make no sense.

Last edited by Elbow Escape; 31-Jul-21 at 17:03.
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  #6  
Old 02-Aug-21, 00:44
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elbow Escape [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
I was sure someone would have brought that video up, but:

1)We are talking about untrained.

That guy is called Sean Clements and not only he is trained (which you can clearly see by how he moves, how he know how to check leg kicks etc....), he is also so talented and athletic that he has become a professional MMA fighter good enough to compete for Bellator
Which basically renders Walton's contribution irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Guys are always looking for someone to piggy-pack.

How often do you hear someone say things like "I know a guy who can..." / "I know a guy who has..."

...As if the mere association elevates their own status.

People probably think "There. I found a guy that could beat her. The little lady has been put in her place. Case closed."
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  #7  
Old 02-Aug-21, 01:48
Elbow Escape Elbow Escape is offline
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiminy [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Which basically renders Walton's contribution irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Guys are always looking for someone to piggy-pack.

How often do you hear someone say things like "I know a guy who can..." / "I know a guy who has..."

...As if the mere association elevates their own status.

People probably think "There. I found a guy that could beat her. The little lady has been put in her place. Case closed."
I believe Walton may have just mistakenly assumed that Sean Clements was just some regular, untrained guy in good shape, like many people in the comment section did.

I have noticed that people who have never practiced a combat sport aren't usually able to tell if someone is trained or not just by looking at how they fight, unless they are making it really obvious by executing very "unnatural looking" BJJ ground submission such as armbars and triangles or cool looking spinning kicks and stuff like that.

That's because since they don't know how to fight properly they also can't tell the difference between someone who is doing it and someone who is not.
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  #8  
Old 03-Aug-21, 19:03
Amazonia Amazonia is offline
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

Most men are weak and don't know how to fight. Even if you assume women are only as good as 14 year old males, there are plenty of boys that age who are capable of beating grown up men without even any fight skills.

For example just saw this video of 14 year old boys humiliating a masculine prime 26 year old man in arm wrestling.



If he was able to do that to him and women are supposedly "only" as good as 14 year old boys, then plenty of women would beat that man too.
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Old 03-Aug-21, 20:39
RNC RNC is offline
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

It is an interesting question but it is very hard to define and answer.

Are we capping the age range of the men that we are including? Doing so will affect the answer, e.g. very few 80 year old men are beating Michelle.

I did one year of judo in school (training once a week, learning almost nothing). If we are only including men without any combat sport training, should I be excluded?

Some street fighters have never done any formal training. Are these included or excluded?

For simplicity, I think the question should included all men.

And what does "can beat" mean? There are men that could Michelle 10% of the time with Michelle winning 90% of the time. Can these men beat Michelle? How do I accommodate these men in my answer?
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  #10  
Old 03-Aug-21, 20:46
Elbow Escape Elbow Escape is offline
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazonia [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Most men are weak and don't know how to fight. Even if you assume women are only as good as 14 year old males, there are plenty of boys that age who are capable of beating grown up men without even any fight skills.

For example just saw this video of 14 year old boys humiliating a masculine prime 26 year old man in arm wrestling.

If he was able to do that to him and women are supposedly "only" as good as 14 year old boys, then plenty of women would beat that man too.
To be fair I think you are also one of the guys that understimate female fighters by a ton since you have voted 50-80%, so basically you think she can beat 4 guys out of 5 guy out at most.
I was very surprised by your choice since from your other comments I had the idea that you had a much higher opinion of women.

Can I ask you to elabore on why you think so?
(I'm not saying that in a condescending manner, I'm genuinely asking because I enjoy talking about such topics and I'm interesting in hearing other people reasoning and arguments, and I'm also open to change my mind)

As a small guy I have grappled with several dozens of untrained guys, including very big and strong guys (the biggest one was around 6'2 and 265 lbs) or athletic guys from different sport backgrounds, so most of them were usually already considerably above average, and I even sparred/had challenge matches with some of them where strikes were allowed, and I have always come up on top.
(I showed some videos of mine to Jiminy in pm so he can attest that I'm not making shit up)

I have also been in a few real fights against significantly taller and heavier untrained guys and even then I had the upper hand.

I can assure you that not a single one of the untrained people I faced would be able to beat Michelle Waterson (and she would also kick my ass without any trouble, since I have lost badly to a very skilled and experienced female session wrestler once, nevermind how I would fare against an actual UFC fighter....).
Some of them may be able to beat her in a striking-only match, but in a no rules fight untrained people are just too clueless about grappling and give up their up back incredibly easily or do so many silly mistakes, and the more aggressive or overconfident they are the more mistakes they make.

That's not to brag or to say that I'm good by the way, I'm not good at all for trained people's standard, it's just that the difference between even knowing just the basics and being completely untrained is truly massive.

P.S:
When I talk about how easily they give up their back I'm not just tallking about turning to their knees to stand after they are taken down, since one could object "but how could she get them down in the first place?", I'm also talking about giving you an easy path to their back while standing.

For example it's very common for untrained people to try punch in the back of the head or to push away someone who has grabbed their leg or has established a double underhook clinch around their waist, and to do so they raise their arm in the process which make easy to duck under it and slip to their back, then you can establish a rear clinch and taking a bigger and stronger guy down from behind is 10X easier then from the front.
Same thing when they swing for a very predictable haymaker punch, or when they lift their to go for a sloppy schoolyard headlock or an half-assed guillotine attempt.
By the way the shorter you are, the easier is to duck under a clueless taller guy arm and take his back, so her small stature is an advantage is that regard.

Last edited by Elbow Escape; 03-Aug-21 at 22:26.
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