Who are the top 5 women you would love to wrestle?

[SilverGiant]

In no particular order;

Dez Desire
Art of Lexi
Jennifer Thomas
Annie Rivieccio (I remember seeing her vids on toughgirls.com way back when. She's what made me realize I was in to all this)
Fitness Amazon from Atlanta (I'd love to know where to find more of her. A clip store, only fans,etc.)

And I'd say an honorable mention to Cheyenne Jewel, as long as the conversation never went to all those wild ass nonsense conspiracies she's always posting about lol.

[Garri]

Top 6-10
Jennifer Thomas
Robin
Kasie Cavenaugh
Christine Fetzer
Christine Dupree

Plus another doctor

[jiminy]

Originally Posted by Elbow Escape [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

I tend to disagree about this part, I have lost to trained women in private and I have also lost a bunch of times to regular women in strenght contest (such as arm wrestling), including an ex girlfriends, and it didn't bothered me, as a matter of fact I enjoyed being overpowered by them in arm wrestling (while I didn't enjoy losing to trained women but it didn't bother me particularly, no more than losing to a guy at least).
I know you are saying that losing in actual grappling match or fight against an unskilled girl would be worse and that I would feel uncomfortable even it was private, but I'm pretty sure that as long as its private I would just enjoy it.

I have already explained why I would not perceive it as a blow to my ego, it would just mean that she is exceptionally strong/ athletic, not that I'm a bad fighter compared to the majority of the population, since I already know from experience that I can beat most males.
And my ego is perfectly content with just being above the average of the male population fighting wise, I don't need anymore than that.
What you are describing would probably happen if I were untrained and was unsure of where I stand for compared to other guys.
Of course I concede that I can't be 100% sure of how I would feel until it happens, maybe I would be surprised by my own reaction in the heat of the moment, who knows.

To cut to the chase, if it really didn’t bother you, you wouldn’t be here talking about it. We don’t talk about stuff that doesn’t bother us. You wouldn’t be so particular about certain integers - seeking out a bigger, stronger woman and grappling with her in a sporting, intense way.

Maybe you just haven’t stopped and thought about the real psychology fuelling these feelings with true honesty. I realise no one likes to be told they have insecurities but it is normal and everyone does just as every has a normal, healthy ego.

Being overpowered and losing isn’t fun. Imagine being those people Zach Talender mentioned that had 10 years experience in BJJ and he can submit them because he’s so much stronger. Imagine investing 10 years of work into something and a newbie walks in and renders all that time and effort useless against them because of their strength and power... Saying you’re happy for them, they’re outlier and I’m not bothered is just mental coping mechanisms kicking in that again, are completely normal, but exactly that; a means of coping with inferiority. In the cold light of day, it sucks and would suck even more if a hot woman, bigger and stronger, were to do that to a guy. It’s just that, in that respect, we’ve found a way of sexualising being inferior to (specific) women.

Originally Posted by Elbow Escape [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

I'm not selling myself short at all lol

These kind of statements always depend very much who you’re comparing yourself to. You might be weak and unathletic compared to professional athletes or even gym goers and fitness enthusiasts, but not compared to Joe average who works a sedentary job and gets no real exercise, eats a poor highly processed diet with poor nutritional value and low intake of vitamins and minerals.

Like I said in another thread, true averageness in terms of athleticism and strength is a lot lower than many people realise. Then you have to account for the 50% of people are even worse than that. It’s not at all uncommon for a lot of people to be incapable of doing a single push up or sit up, or bodyweight squat. That’s why the fitness industry brings out these gimmicky pieces of equipment like the ‘wonder core’ and ‘squat magic’ - to cater to these people who find those simple exercises too challenging and off putting because they’re so out of shape.

Originally Posted by Elbow Escape [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

By the way I have a curiosity, do you have any combat sport experience?

I have always been enthusiastic about most sports. I did Boxing for 4 years age 16-20, and have had a few Karate, Judo and BJJ classes along the way but no more than a handful.

I have mentioned a few times on here about when I was at my Boxing gym and grappled with a couple of BJJ guys. One, that had just been awarded his blue belt, was able to get me down and submit me but another, despite having a couple of years experience, was just too slow, uncoordinated and telegraphed everything and despite having had no formal grappling training at the time, was able to resist him and even when on the ground was able to scramble back up just based to instinct, speed and agility.

I also have over a decade of semi consistent weight training. I am 3x times stronger than when I started. I used to only be able to bench press 35KG. Now I can bench almost 110KG. Overhead press has gone from 25KG to 75KG. Squats from 40KG to 130KG.

Because of that idealistic view of what average is, I thought I was a complete weakling when I first started seriously lifting weights. But the problem was I was comparing myself to more seasoned guys in the gym. I can now see from where other newbies and non-lifters start from, I was just bog-average for an untrained guy, which most people are.

More recently (a couple of years ago) I was at a bar and a friend of a friend was bragging about being a BJJ purple belt and a vegan. He was very skinny and after some banter (when people are quite boastful I often want to put them to the test having worked hard at my own fitness for years) I let him put me in a rear naked choke to see if i could break out. Sorry to say i really could just grab his forearm and yank it away. Like I said he was a skinny vegan and I was probably 4x stronger than him. When you’re dealing with that kind of strength disparity it really is hard to make these techniques work. Now if I was still that skinny kid myself and only 1.5-2x stronger than him i probably wouldn’t have been able to do that. Like with that Steele/Zalander example. Steele is a stud himself who lifts weights and the strength disparity was there, but not that big.

I agree completely with what Ramsey Dewey was saying - it works both ways. My experience measures up exactly with what he says. Training is extremely valuable but by no means magical. Some people really are too small and weak to make these techniques work against bigger stronger and more athletic people. It all depends on the individuals.

Originally Posted by JackWrestleboy7i [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

Ok, so this was likely due to his sheer size (130lbs on you) + his explosiveness. Size and explosiveness are a deadly combination.




Tbh, I think you may be selling yourself a little short.

I know of many people who train in BJJ, who struggle against athletic guys who just stroll into the gym to try. Sometimes it's not even about athleticism so much as it Is about size, I.e. a moderately athletic but huge guy gives smaller higher level belts big trouble.

you were able to submit a much larger, stronger guy who was rather explosive and athletic himself. While the untrained clueless person can be easy to beat, they're a lot harder to beat if they're athletic and larger than you. remember, that to you, an untrained crossfit woman would also be clueless in grappling, because you have specifically stipulated you want to face a woman who has 0 grappling experience.



Probably, there's a whole host of reasons that come into play.



yes, I think you should.send it to me..I find it intriguing for sure.

I definitely agree.

Now these are arbitrary numbers but you get the point

Assuming very well trained but not professional.

140lb trained 140lb untrained - 300-100
140 vs 120 500 - 100
140 vs 160 - 250-100
140 vs 180 - 200 -100
140 vs 200 - 150 - 100
140 vs 220 - 100 - 100

I think the scale is progressive as in beyond 220 and 120 the difference becomes notable to the point that victory or defeat is 99% certain. But again, this depends on the level of skill too. I'd possibly argue that anything around 40lb will not affect the skilled wrestler and would result in a certain victory.

I think with mixed wrestling a guy is more likely to hold out with a skilled wrestler but not likely win.

I can't see any untrained guy outwrestling a trained female with at least 20lb on him, same weight I could see him holding out, but not winning. AS for an untrained female vs untrained male, I'd say 60lb difference would be around the mark.

[Pinned34]

Dez Desire
Sara Lips
Jolene Hexx
Ava Simone
Mistress Kara

[Elbow Escape]

Originally Posted by jiminy [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

To cut to the chase, if it really didn’t bother you, you wouldn’t be here talking about it. We don’t talk about stuff that doesn’t bother us. You wouldn’t be so particular about certain integers - seeking out a bigger, stronger woman and grappling with her in a sporting, intense way.

What kind of logic is that? XD
Since when if you like to talk about something it must mean that it bothers you? XD
You can also talk about stuff you enjoy it, as a matter of fact people are more likely to spent their free time talking about things they like.
I come here to talk about mixed fighting stuff because it's something I enjoy and sexually arouse me, and like all plasaurable things it actually distracts me from things that really bothers me.

You seem to think that I must feel exactly like how you would feel in the same situation, and if I said the opposite it must mean that I'm lying, coping or in denial, but we are not all the same.
I truly would enjoy and not mind losing to a muscular woman athlete in an intimate/private setting, believe it or not.

I have mentioned a few times on here about when I was at my Boxing gym and grappled with a couple of BJJ guys. One, that had just been awarded his blue belt, was able to get me down and submit me but another, despite having a couple of years experience, was just too slow, uncoordinated and telegraphed everything and despite having had no formal grappling training at the time, was able to resist him and even when on the ground was able to scramble back up just based to instinct, speed and agility.[....]
More recently (a couple of years ago) I was at a bar and a friend of a friend was bragging about being a BJJ purple belt and a vegan. He was very skinny and after some banter (when people are quite boastful I often want to put them to the test having worked hard at my own fitness for years) I let him put me in a rear naked choke to see if i could break out. Sorry to say i really could just grab his forearm and yank it away. Like I said he was a skinny vegan and I was probably 4x stronger than him. When you’re dealing with that kind of strength disparity it really is hard to make these techniques work. Now if I was still that skinny kid myself and only 1.5-2x stronger than him i probably wouldn’t have been able to do that. Like with that Steele/Zalander example. Steele is a stud himself who lifts weights and the strength disparity was there, but not that big.

One thing that is important to point out is that "training BJJ" or "being a BJJ blue/purple/black belt" is something much more vague and inconsistent than most people realize.
There is not a set and universal training curriculum or program for BJJ gyms, so every gym is vastly different from the others it terms of the order they teach techniques, what facets of grappling they focus on, the technical depth of techniques, the aim of the training, the standard for promotions etc....
For example most gyms are geared esclusively at making you a better competetitor against other technical guys in your weight classes, which follow radically different principles, concepts and strategies than dealing with a much bigger, stronger and more athletic but untrained person (eg floating from positions when on top instead of securing control in a thight way, being very patient and cooking him by letting him burn his energy doings ineffective things and making him escape from holds with strenght until he is too tired etc....)

Not to mentions that most BJJ gyms don't train at all something as important as takedowns.

The results depends on the individuals (not only from a physcal standpoint, but also from a commitment, fighting intelligence and ability to learn one) but they also depends a lot on the kind of training they are following.

You are still getting good at dealing with someone bigger, stronger and more athletic, yes, but not anywhere near as much as you theoretically could with a different training methodology, mindset/strategy and level of technical depth.

I agree completely with what Ramsey Dewey was saying - it works both ways. My experience measures up exactly with what he says. Training is extremely valuable but by no means magical. Some people really are too small and weak to make these techniques work against bigger stronger and more athletic people. It all depends on the individuals.

Speaking of personal experiences, in my experience I have beaten dozens (not one or two, but dozens, so it can't be a fluke) of people who were simulanteously bigger, stronger and more athletic than me but unskilled/untrained.
(altough the majority of them were not that big, strong or athletic, mind you, most were just around the average in those regards, but they were still above me since I'm below average).

Said that, this statement " Training is extremely valuable but by no means magical. Some people really are too small and weak to make these techniques work against bigger stronger and more athletic people. It all depends on the individuals." is stll undeniably correct, I also agree with it and it's impossible to disagree.
I never said technique it's magic or it has no limits, quite the opposite.

The point of debate is when exactly the size, strenght, speed and athleticism gap is so big that you reach the cutting point where an untrained person is going to basically be invincible for a trained one no matter the technique he has, the strategy he followed, his mindset and his experience.
I'm not sure about the answer to this question.

For example, I'm 100% sure that an untrained guy with the same physical attributes and athleticism of Zach Telander (since you have mentioned him) would easily destroy not just me (that's easy, I'm not that skilled or experienced), but he would also easily destroy any hypotetical guy with the same physical qualities of mine regardless of his technical expertise and knowledge.
The difference is just too immense and ridicolous to have any doubt about it.
(I spoke about "an untrained guy with the same athleticism" because Zach himself is a bad example, since he is not untrained or clueless about grappling, and like I have always said the difference between being totally clueless and knowing just the basics is truly massive when it comes to ground fighting, Zach himself pointed it out when speaking about him beating more experienced guys)

What I'm not sure about is where the cutting point/threshold is exactly.

[Elbow Escape]

More recently (a couple of years ago) I was at a bar and a friend of a friend was bragging about being a BJJ purple belt and a vegan. He was very skinny and after some banter (when people are quite boastful I often want to put them to the test having worked hard at my own fitness for years) I let him put me in a rear naked choke to see if i could break out. Sorry to say i really could just grab his forearm and yank it away. Like I said he was a skinny vegan and I was probably 4x stronger than him

Do you mean you yanked at the choking arm or at the supporting arm behind your head?

I have mentioned a few times on here about when I was at my Boxing gym and grappled with a couple of BJJ guys. One, that had just been awarded his blue belt, was able to get me down and submit me but another, despite having a couple of years experience, was just too slow, uncoordinated and telegraphed everything and despite having had no formal grappling training at the time, was able to resist him and even when on the ground was able to scramble back up just based to instinct, speed and agility.

Then how did it end up by the way? Did you submit him or did he submit you?

You must also keep in mind that most BJJ gyms don't focus much, if anything all, on takedowns and on keeping down someone who is trying to explosively scramble to stand back up.
That's because they are used to practice grappling with opponents who are content with being on the ground, and who are trying to methodically recover their guard instead of exploding to their feet.

It's very possible that this guy was too slow and uncoordinated to compensate for a lack on techique regarding setting takedowns up and keeping a more explosive and athletic guy pinned to his back, but that he would have much better success with more technique and experience in those skillset.

It's also true that some people are just too uncoordinated, unahletic and inept to learn to grapple and execute techniques in a way that I would consider decent, but they are extremely rare outliers who lack even the most basic coordination/motor skills.
I have met just one in my life, I tried to teach him some moves just for fun and the results were abysmally bad because he lacked even the most basic coordination, body awareness and sense of timing.

I'm very low on the spectrum from a physical standpoint, yes, but I still don't fall in this category.

[hawk_eye]

How exactly does a thread about the Top 5 women guys would like to wrestle turn into one about dudes wrestling each other?

[jiminy]

Originally Posted by Elbow Escape [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

Do you mean you yanked at the choking arm or at the supporting arm behind your head?

It happened very quickly and I probably don't recall everything exactly as it happened but initially I remember being able to alleviate the choke somewhat from shrugging and bucking my shoulders while getting a grip on the choking arm - not pulling it away, but tugging enough to alleviate the pressure and get my neck and shoulders more tucked so that the choke was more around my chin/jaw and from there I could reach back and pull away the supporting arm first followed by the choking arm (I think).

Remember this guy was, by comparison, very skinny and weak and I’m not in any way proposing that translates into any great personal prowess. Compared to most male gym newbies I’m only 2-2.5x stronger and still by no means a strong guy by powerlifting standards.

That's partly testament to what training can do from a strength perspective. I started from that point of averageness and bettered myself from training.

My point is, everything is relative to the individuals going 1-on-1. Even when you’re noticeably stronger than someone there’s a huge difference between being twice as strong and four times as strong. That’s an immense disparity.

Coming back to the Steele/Talander example - that kind of strength disparity didn’t exist there. Talander was perhaps “only” twice as strong, but that’s not enough to bridge the gap. But against those non-elite guys with 10 years experience that he alluded to there probably did exist a disparity where Talander was 4 times as strong in many areas/muscle groups. At that point it really does become like man vs. gorilla where these techniques just aren’t going to work against raw power and natural instinct.

Originally Posted by Elbow Escape [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

Then how did it end up by the way? Did you submit him or did he submit you?

I think we sparred/rolled for about 10 minutes and just timed out. Obviously if it was an real MMA match I feel I would have won but in the context of sparring in the gym, albeit fairly spirited, I had no intention of using my Boxing to bloody him up or anything that violent and I wasn't trying to go on the offensive-grappling wise, mainly just seeing if I could defend submissions and his offensive grappling.

Similar to when you talked about your MMA style match with your ex-girlfriend. I doubt she had the intention of using her striking to potentially break your nose or inflict cuts/bruises. In that respect you have to hold back a lot more but with grappling you can go harder without the same level of violence.

Added after 27 minutes:

Originally Posted by hawk_eye [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]

How exactly does a thread about the Top 5 women guys would like to wrestle turn into one about dudes wrestling each other?

Apologies Hawk.

Here are some women I'd much rather test myself against.

Holly Holm





[Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]


Nataliya Romashko

[bizyz]

Ellen Degeneres if she paid me.
Rosie O'Donnell if she paid me.