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  #81  
Old 16-Aug-20, 01:28
Elbow Escape Elbow Escape is offline
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Default Re: Here we go again! Gabi Garcia vs Aleksandr Karelin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazonia [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
But who is this "average man"? Men are so different to each other, especially if you look over the entire world. You have everything from Bolivia where average height for males is 5'3'' to Bosnia where it's 6'0''. From big men from Samoa to some skinny boys from places with totally different climate and nutrition. Not to mention all the cultural differences and differences in upbringing. From someone like me who grew up privileged and didn't care about masculine to someone who grew up working in some factory or a mine.

The average man doesn't exist. It's a myth. Like how would this average man even look like? What race, what kind of built, what kind of upbringing, culture? Define the average man exactly if you can. You can't, or if you would, only a tiny minority of men around the world would actually fit this description.

It's all just some delusional fantasy of humiliated males who all happen to think they fit the mythical "average man" profile so they have some sort of belonging to the supposedly "superior" gender.

The same goes for women, women are completely different to each other.

All these supposed differences between genders are so overrated when individuals in their own gender are so different to each other. Compare Brock Lesnar to some ladyboy in Thailand and tell me how much men have in common. Nothing lol.

There is nothing about men or masculinity that necessarily makes them better than women, especially not the top women. Please don't start with testosterone this, testosterone that, a tiny 5'1'' man from third world can have all the testosterone he wants, he's still going to be in a big disadvantage if he would want to fight a 6'1'' girly girl from some developed country.

At the very top, the elite males perform better but these men are so detached from the rest of their gender they're completely irrelevant. Elite female athletes have more in common with than than the vast majority of men on this planet.

So all this talk about men being "stronger" doesn't apply to the world outside of elite sports.

Also the modern society and the modern data exposed males as being outperformed by women more and more. So things are getting very humbling for them. They're also losing testosterone. Things are going to get more and more different from individual to individual, rather than overall gender differences being relevant.
Of course there are huge differences among individuals of the same gender, what I meant with men being stronger on "average" is just that the majority of men are stronger than the majority of women.
This doesn't mean that all men are stronger than all women, and it doesn't even mean that all men are stronger than most women.

And exactly because individuals are not all the same, you can also find a minority of women stronger than most men.

Last edited by Elbow Escape; 16-Aug-20 at 02:15.
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  #82  
Old 17-Aug-20, 01:53
thebrozac thebrozac is offline
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Default Re: Here we go again! Gabi Garcia vs Aleksandr Karelin

I thought I would mention also that the FC Dallas under-15 boys squad beat the U.S. Women's National Team in a scrimmage (like a friendly) in 2017.

The point is that we can all cherry pick stats to support our arguments.
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  #83  
Old 17-Aug-20, 16:03
garcon55 garcon55 is offline
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Default Re: Here we go again! Gabi Garcia vs Aleksandr Karelin

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Originally Posted by Amazonia [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
So what exactly is your point by quoting this? It looks like this Tomlinson guy is speculating something without putting forward anything substantial.
you are so stupid:

"Herodotus (vi. 76) does not refer to the intervention of Telesilla"

VI 76
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After the Sepeia battle:
Then Cleomenes sent most of his army back to Sparta, while he himself took a thousand of the best warriors and went to the temple of Hera to sacrifice. When he wished to sacrifice at the altar the priest forbade him, saying that it was not holy for a stranger to sacrifice there. Cleomenes ordered the helots to carry the priest away from the altar and whip him, and he performed the sacrifice. After doing this, he returned to Sparta.

But after his return his enemies brought him before the ephors, saying that he had been bribed not to take Argos when he might have easily taken it. Cleomenes alleged (whether falsely or truly, I cannot rightly say; but this he alleged in his speech) that he had supposed the god's oracle to be fulfilled by his taking of the temple of Argus; therefore he had thought it best not to make any attempt on the city before he had learned from the sacrifices whether the god would deliver it to him or withstand him; [2] when he was taking omens in Hera's temple a flame of fire had shone forth from the breast of the image, and so he learned the truth of the matter, that he would not take Argos. If the flame had come out of the head of the image, he would have taken the city from head to foot utterly; but its coming from the breast signified that he had done as much as the god willed to happen. This plea of his seemed to the Spartans to be credible and reasonable, and he far outdistanced the pursuit of his accusers.

But Argos was so wholly deprived of men that their slaves took possession of all affairs, ruling and governing until the sons of the slain men grew up. Then they recovered Argos for themselves and cast out the slaves
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  #84  
Old 17-Aug-20, 16:56
Amazonia Amazonia is offline
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Default Re: Here we go again! Gabi Garcia vs Aleksandr Karelin

Quote:
Originally Posted by garcon55 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
you are so stupid:

"Herodotus (vi. 76) does not refer to the intervention of Telesilla"
If you think Herodotus is always 100% credible then you should agree that Amazons also existed and that they beat armies of Greek males.

So this also happened then because this is from the same historian you quote...

110) When the Hellenes fought against the Amazons (the Scythians call the Amazons Oiorpata, a name that means Aslayers of men@ in Greek, for they call a man Aoior@ and denote Ato kill@ by Apata.@), the story at that time was that the Hellenes, after conquering them in a battle along the Thermodon River, sailed away, bringing in three ships as many of the Amazons as they could capture alive. The Amazons attacked the men at sea and cut them to pieces. But the Amazons did not understand ships or how to use rudders, sails, and oars. After they slaughtered the men, they were carried by both wave and wind. They arrived at Late Maiotis to a place called The Cliffs. (The Cliffs are in the land of the free Scyths.) There, the Amazons disembarked from the ships and proceeded by land into the inhabited regions. Chancing upon a heard of horses, they seized the animals and began plundering the territory of the Scythians from horseback.


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Very humiliating for the Greeks, easily overpowered by captured unarmed Amazon women!

This is the same historian you quoted as 100% true evidence, so you have no basis to argue it didn't happen.


This is what really happened in Argos according to Plutarch:

Under the lead of Telesilla, they [women of Argos] took up arms, and, taking their stand by the battlements, manned the walls all round, so that the enemy were amazed. The result was that they repulsed Cleomenes with great loss, and the other king, Demaratus, who managed to get inside, as Socrates [FHG IV, p. 497] says, and gained possession of the Pamphyliacum, they drove out. In this way the city was saved.

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Furthermore on that link above you can see that Plutarch also tells us this and refutes Herotodus:

To repair the scarcity of men they did not unite the women with slaves, as Herodotus (VI. 77-83) records, but with the best of their neighboring subjects, whom they made Argive citizens. It was reputed that the women showed disrespect and an intentional indifference to those husbands in their married relations from a feeling that they were underlings. Wherefore the Argives enacted a law, the one which says that married women having a beard must occupy the same bed with their husbands.


In short, the women of Argos realized that masculinity was a joke after their men were unable to beat Spartans, while they could.
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  #85  
Old 18-Aug-20, 07:15
garcon55 garcon55 is offline
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Default Re: Here we go again! Gabi Garcia vs Aleksandr Karelin

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Originally Posted by Amazonia [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
If you think Herodotus is always 100% credible
No i tend to believe historians specialists of the question, instead of a troll on from malevsfemale.org


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That Herodotos does not mention the story of the heroic stand of the Argive women led by the female poet, Telesilla, is telling. This is certainly not the type of story that Herodotos would have omitted from his narrative had he been aware of it. It seems,therefore, most likely that the story is an Argive tradition, as Plutarch’s citation of Sokrates of Argos confirms (L. Scott, Historical Commentary on Herodotus Book 6 (Leiden 2005), 576).Because Plutarch does not mention any other authors in his account, we are unable to fully trace the sources of his narrative. We know that a portion of the story had been developed by the time of Aristotle, since he mentions foreigners being admitted to the Argive state toameliorate the massive loss of life in the war against Kleomenes (Politics 1302B34-1303A11). A very thorough historical commentary of this passage is provided by L. Scott’s Historical Commentary on Herodotus Book 6
, 294-308, 571-88. The relationship between Sparta and Argosduring this period is a much discussed topic (R.A. Tomlinson, Argos and the Argolid (Ithaca,NY 1972), 87-100; T. Kelly, A History of Argos (Minneapolis, MN 1976), 73-7, 86-9, 127-8).
Plutarch’s narrative (and presumably his Argive sources) seems to have developed fromcertain elements of Herodotos’s story. In Herodotos 6.77, the Argives receive an oracle, whichpredicts the valorous actions of the state’s women: ‘There will be a time when the female shallconquer the male, and will drive him far off—gaining very great praise and honor in Argos . . .’Quite clearly, the oracle allowed for the development of a character such as Telesilla and the heroic stand of the Argive women that we find in the Argive sources. The Argive narrative must have explained Kleomenes’s failure to sack the city by telling the story of his defeat at the hands of the brave women of Argos. For a thought-provoking discussion of the history of theoracle before Herodotos, see M. Piérart, ‘The Common Oracle of the Milesians and the Argives(Herodotus 6.19 and 77)’, in P. Derow and R. Parker (eds.),
Herodotus and His World: Essays froma Conference in Memory of George Forrest (Oxford 2003).Further, in 6.83, Herodotos reports that the number of men in the state was extremely low in the aftermath of the battle and that as a result, Argos, was ruled for a time by slaves. Plutarch and the Argive sources, thus, work from the same premise as Herodotos, namely, that men were few in number after the war with Sparta, but reject that this problem was solved by slaves, instead, positing that the state was
filled with the most preeminent of foreigners. Given the tidy way in which the account of the Argive sources (as transmitted through Plutarch)seems to make use of undeveloped strains of Herodotos’s narrative, it seems reasonable to question the historicity of the defense of Argos by Telesilla and the other Argive women. For further detail about the comparison of these two passages, see P. Stadter,
Plutarch’s Historical Methods: An Analysis of the Mulierum Virtutes
(Cambridge 1965), 45-53.
Further doubt can be cast on historicity of the story by the fact that Telesilla’s loruit seems tobe a bit too late (ca. 452/1 BC according to Eusebios of Caesarea’s
Chronicon) to haveintersected with Kleomenes, who was allegedly put on trial and died in 488 BC (F. Graf,‘Women, War and Warlike Divinities’,
55 (1984), 247). Certainly, as Jacoby notes, it made sense to give the group of women a leader and make her the well-known poet.
Aristotle, in agreement with Plutarch and his Argive sources,attests that perioikoi (‘foreigners’) were made citizens (Politics 1302B34-1303A11). These
perioikoi may have been from neighboring towns such as Tiryns or Mykene (R. Sealey,
A History of the Greek City States (Berkeley, CA 1976), 154). The differences in the narratives areattributable to the same factors that led to the invention of the Telesilla story; Herodotos’s statement that Argos was ruled by slaves was certainly painful for the Argives, and the Argivenarrative reacted apologetically to this story (Stadter,
Plutarch’s Historical Methods, 50). For more discussion on the nature of the ‘slaves’/’foreigners’ that ruled Argos following the attack of Kleomenes, see R.F. Willets

Added after 6 minutes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazonia [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
It was reputed that the women showed disrespect and an intentional indifference to those husbands in their married relations from a feeling that they were underlings.
You donīt even realize here that Plutarch means that the women disrespected the men because they were not masculine enough to defend their city. This masculinity was to be shown on the battlefield in the greek and the roman worlds. Masculinity was pivotal. A man didnīt exist without it.
You wuld have been an underling in the greek world, and women would have ignored you. (might be actually the case in the actual world)

Last edited by garcon55; 18-Aug-20 at 07:15.
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  #86  
Old 18-Aug-20, 08:04
Amazonia Amazonia is offline
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Default Re: Here we go again! Gabi Garcia vs Aleksandr Karelin

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Originally Posted by garcon55 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
No i tend to believe historians specialists of the question, instead of a troll on from malevsfemale.org
They're speculating. They can't believe that women beat men so they make up different interpretations. They already reject the story from the sources instead of looking for evidence.

Also you still haven't explained why the Moors easily lost to a bunch of Spanish girls.

Quote:
You donīt even realize here that Plutarch means that the women disrespected the men because they were not masculine enough to defend their city. This masculinity was to be shown on the battlefield in the greek and the roman worlds. Masculinity was pivotal. A man didnīt exist without it.
You wuld have been an underling in the greek world, and women would have ignored you. (might be actually the case in the actual world)
You keep saying this while admitting you are even lower in masculinity hierarchy. You described yourself as a humiliated male who lost to women. So it's clear all your rambling about masculinity comes from insecurity. You would be in even worse position in the Greek world so it's hilarious you brag about this.

Greeks and Romans were a bunch of wimps anyway. The northerners proved to be much better warriors and they established a society where masculinity isn't needed anymore. The Greeks and Romans ended up as just another group of humiliated and conquered males in history.
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  #87  
Old 18-Aug-20, 08:58
garcon55 garcon55 is offline
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Default Re: Here we go again! Gabi Garcia vs Aleksandr Karelin

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Originally Posted by Amazonia [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
They're speculating. They can't believe that women beat men so they make up different interpretations. They already reject the story from the sources instead of looking for evidence.

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  #88  
Old 18-Aug-20, 09:56
Amazonia Amazonia is offline
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Default Re: Here we go again! Gabi Garcia vs Aleksandr Karelin

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Originally Posted by garcon55 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Garcon again not knowing what to say.

You still haven't even tried to explain why the Moorish males were beaten by a bunch of Spanish girls

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Are you still searching for any butthurt historian trying to put this into question? Good luck.
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  #89  
Old 18-Aug-20, 10:06
garcon55 garcon55 is offline
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Default Re: Here we go again! Gabi Garcia vs Aleksandr Karelin

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Originally Posted by Amazonia [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Garcon again not knowing what to say.

You still haven't even tried to explain why the Moorish males were beaten by a bunch of Spanish girls

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Are you still searching for any butthurt historian trying to put this into question? Good luck.
Do you realize how much time it takes to debunk your constant misinformation?
And even when i do so, you say that whole academic world is wrong but you, amazonia of malevsfemale, are right
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  #90  
Old 18-Aug-20, 10:26
Amazonia Amazonia is offline
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Default Re: Here we go again! Gabi Garcia vs Aleksandr Karelin

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Originally Posted by garcon55 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
Do you realize how much time it takes to debunk your constant misinformation?
And even when i do so, you say that whole academic world is wrong but you, amazonia of malevsfemale, are right
By "whole academic world" you mean one historian who speculated that the story about the women of Argos might not be true?

Stories about women besting males in battles are very common in ancient Greece so it's obvious that something like this must have happened at some point, otherwise it would not be talked about so often.

It looks like even the Greeks were more comfortable with the image of women beating men than the modern males:

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Amazons stand over a fallen Greek and carry off their wounded

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Why do you think they made such art? It's obvious they got humbled at some point lol
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