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View Poll Results: What percentage of untraned men can Michelle Waterson beat in a fight?
5%, she can beat just the weakest men 4 7.27%
5% to 20% 4 7.27%
20% to 50% 3 5.45%
50% to 80% 12 21.82%
80% to 95% 7 12.73%
95% to 99% 14 25.45%
99,9% 1 1.82%
99,99% 5 9.09%
99,999% 0 0%
99,9999% 2 3.64%
>99,9999% 3 5.45%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21  
Old 10-Aug-21, 08:51
xen2002 xen2002 is offline
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

As someone who is 6'2 200 lbs in my 30s with limited fighting training but a rugby player, Michelle Waterson would just be too small to compete with the strength/height/weight disadvantages she would have. The same would apply to me for anyone with contact sports experience who is in good shape and weighs 180+? Below that I guess smaller guys without a sporting background and those in bad shape might struggle.

Someone like Valentina Shevchenko would be more interesting. She is still light but her punches are significantly harder and she comes across as more aggressive. In a survive a round vs type bout I think without being able to throw any punches back then Shevchenko would be quite scary. As soon as a 6ft+ athletic guy is allowed to throw punches back I dont think any women with maybe the exception of Amanda Nunes would do well regardless of the guys lack of fighting experience.
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  #22  
Old 10-Aug-21, 09:25
Elbow Escape Elbow Escape is offline
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xen2002 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
As someone who is 6'2 200 lbs in my 30s with limited fighting training but a rugby player, Michelle Waterson would just be too small to compete with the strength/height/weight disadvantages she would have. The same would apply to me for anyone with contact sports experience who is in good shape and weighs 180+? Below that I guess smaller guys without a sporting background and those in bad shape might struggle.

Someone like Valentina Shevchenko would be more interesting. She is still light but her punches are significantly harder and she comes across as more aggressive. In a survive a round vs type bout I think without being able to throw any punches back then Shevchenko would be quite scary. As soon as a 6ft+ athletic guy is allowed to throw punches back I dont think any women with maybe the exception of Amanda Nunes would do well regardless of the guys lack of fighting experience.
You have "limited fighting training" tough (training in what by the way?), I'm talking about completely untrained.

You should know that the difference between having no training and having a little bit of training is truly massive, at least if we are talking about grappling.

Speaking from experience I knew three rugby players between 200-265 lbs (the 265 lbs one was the biggest one) who believed that I was just too small to do anything to them since I was a 5'6 130-140 lbs small guy at the time, and then I have beaten one of them in a real fight and the other two in friendly grappling matches.

I actually tapped the biggest one out in 30 seconds even tough I had less than a year of BJJ practice at the time (If you find that implausible, Jiminy can confirm I'm not making it up since we recorded one of this matches and I send it to him in a private message).

At the same time I have also lost badly to a 5'2 125 lbs session wrestler that can't be compared to Michelle Waterson at all, so there is no doubt that she could have defeated the same guys I beaten and way easier than me.

In a fist fight Michelle would be overwhelmed yes, but fighting is not just about striking, you should not understimate the effectiveness of BJJ against someone who is clueless about it even with such a large physical advantage, it's the best way to get caught by surprise by a sneaky submission you didn't even know about.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that she could beat every single untrained 200+ lbs rugby player in the world, there are some who would be just too athletic or talented for fighiting for her.
But it's also wrong to assume that such a size and strenght advantage alone would be insourmuntable, I believe she could beat a large percentage of them if we talk about guys who just play at local level and not about high level succefull players.

Last edited by Elbow Escape; 10-Aug-21 at 09:45.
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  #23  
Old 10-Aug-21, 09:36
Fadzman Fadzman is online now
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

I agree with Elbow Escape here. There is such disparity in rugby players. If you are 200 lbs plus and playing in the first team in the English Premiership that is an entirely different thing to the 200lbs plus dude playing 4th grade rugby!

Dont get me wrong, I know rugby players who have very limited training and they would kick my ass and I have been grappling for 6 years and played rugby at a high level myself!
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  #24  
Old 10-Aug-21, 09:42
Elbow Escape Elbow Escape is offline
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

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Originally Posted by Fadzman [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
I agree with Elbow Escape here. There is such disparity in rugby players. If you are 200 lbs plus and playing in the first team in the English Premiership that is an entirely different thing to the 200lbs plus dude playing 4th grade rugby!

Dont get me wrong, I know rugby players who have very limited training and they would kick my ass and I have been grappling for 6 years and played rugby at a high level myself!
Yes of course, I point out that the big rugby players I defeated were just local players in a small town near where I live.
I have no doubt that an high level professional rugby player would have murdered me without any effort, but they are actually a minority among rugby players (or among athletes in general)
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  #25  
Old 10-Aug-21, 10:03
xen2002 xen2002 is offline
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

If we are talking the UK any rugby player in a first team down to tier 5 or 6 should be in great condition and will carry an enormous physical advantage vs Michelle.

I have had no grappling training but done some boxing and even the weight of my jab (not to mention knees and elbows) would make it very hard for someone like Michelle to initiate grappling let alone wrestle a 200 lbs guy with good balance to the ground.

In a pure grappling match no doubt i would lose to a trained guy lighter than me but would struggle to see a flyweight women being able to do too much here
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  #26  
Old 10-Aug-21, 10:20
Elbow Escape Elbow Escape is offline
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xen2002 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
If we are talking the UK any rugby player in a first team down to tier 5 or 6 should be in great condition and will carry an enormous physical advantage vs Michelle.

I have had no grappling training but done some boxing and even the weight of my jab (not to mention knees and elbows) would make it very hard for someone like Michelle to initiate grappling let alone wrestle a 200 lbs guy with good balance to the ground.

In a pure grappling match no doubt i would lose to a trained guy lighter than me but would struggle to see a flyweight women being able to do too much here
Keep yourself outside of striking range > close the distance when he rush forward to punch > duck under his arm as soon as he raise it> go behind him and establish the rear clinch > make him fall forward with a rear double leg takedown > when he post his hand of the ground to avoid faceplanting, jump on his back and put him in a rear naked choke

That's how I took down an over 6'0 200 lbs athletic rugby player in a fight.

Do you really find that implausible that Michelle Waterson could do the same to plenty of guys that size?

Moreover you talk about your jab but like I said this is not about you, it's about guys with zero combat training.
Untrained people usually don't jab, they just throw sloppy and very predictable haymaker that are very easy to duck under, and the shorter you are the easier is to duck under a clueless taller opponent's arm and take his back.
As a matter of fact against such a smaller and weaker female it's likely they would feel confident that if they just grab her and pin her she would be powerless, so it's likely they would try to rush her and take her down before starting to hit her, but if they don't know anything about ground fighting they can still get caught by surprise by some counters from the bottom of the guard such an arm drag to take the back, an omoplata sweep, a single leg x guard sweep or an heel hook.
(I mentioned just techniques that would still work even with that size and power difference since most techniques would not work, eg. if she goes for a triangle or an armbar she would get picked up and slammed in a split second).
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  #27  
Old 10-Aug-21, 11:12
xen2002 xen2002 is offline
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

im not disagreeing. I think 20% of untrained/limited training men (age 18-45) would win for sure in a UFC style fight.

30% it would probably be a toss up

and she would win vs 50% of the rest (unathletic, smaller).

What changes the percent is most men like myself would not be comfortable throwing punches let alone knees and elbows at a girl and if you remove this then it becomes just defence. I have done some boxing sessions with sessiongirls and when there is no threat of a punch coming back its much easier for them to get past the guard! Even so based on the video even without the protection gear it would be super easy to survive a round vs Michelle (I dont think that would be the case with Valentina!)
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  #28  
Old 10-Aug-21, 11:28
Elbow Escape Elbow Escape is offline
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xen2002 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
im not disagreeing. I think 20% of untrained/limited training men (age 18-45) would win for sure in a UFC style fight.

30% it would probably be a toss up

and she would win vs 50% of the rest (unathletic, smaller).
Well, then you are actually disagreeing with me lol, I think that when people use those percentages they don't realize how many people there are in this world.

Even if you believe that every single 200 lbs rugby player in the world would be unbeatable for her, guys like that are already in the top 1-2% of the male population, not in the top 20%.

I don't know where you guys live that when you go outside for every 10 guys that you see walking down the street two of them are 6'2 200+ lbs in shape and explosive athletes.
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  #29  
Old 10-Aug-21, 12:02
xen2002 xen2002 is offline
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

probably true, I live in a place in Europe which is basically set up for outdoor activities and most of my mates are very active so probably its skewed my perceived %s. I havent been back to the UK since covid and forget how overweight and out of shape many of the population are!

I watch pretty much all the UFC fights and a lot of the trained women struggle to inflict actual damage on light female opponents (including Michelle). What is your definition of "beat"? a) Hurt a guy so that he needs to quit/tap? Or b) a MMA type 3 round set up and win on points? If b) I agree Michelle would probably win vs 80%+ of the population, if its more like can you survive a round or 3 with Michelle i think a lot higher percentage could
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  #30  
Old 10-Aug-21, 12:26
Elbow Escape Elbow Escape is offline
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Default Re: What percentage of untrained men can Michelle Waterson beat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xen2002 [Only Registered Users Can See LinksClick Here To Register]
probably true, I live in a place in Europe which is basically set up for outdoor activities and most of my mates are very active so probably its skewed my perceived %s. I havent been back to the UK since covid and forget how overweight and out of shape many of the population are!

I watch pretty much all the UFC fights and a lot of the trained women struggle to inflict actual damage on light female opponents (including Michelle). What is your definition of "beat"? a) Hurt a guy so that he needs to quit/tap? Or b) a MMA type 3 round set up and win on points? If b) I agree Michelle would probably win vs 80%+ of the population, if its more like can you survive a round or 3 with Michelle i think a lot higher percentage could
The poll is about a real, no rules fight so no points and winning mean that the opponent is not physically able or willing to keep fighting anymore.

She doesn't need to be able to hurt them with strikes, submissions are the key to end the fight here.
For example a rear naked choke make you unconscious regardless of size and with minimal strenght needed, while an heel hook blow your knee up no matter how big and strong you are since it works by putting the strenght of your whole body against the strenght of your opponents isolated knee joint.
Moreover you can also pull an heel hook off on an unsespecting standing opponent from the bottom of the fight, so it's still a viable tactic even if you are unable to take him down, for example:



You may not see those submissions pulled of so easily in UFC matches because the competitors know very well how to defend from them and how to make the right adjustement to not end up in a spot where they are vulnerable to them in the first place, but I can attest you from personal experience that they are very easy to apply on someone who is completely clueless and naive about grappling technique, even if it's a real fight.
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